Taking Ryu To The Next Level: Punishing Whiffed Normal

[ilitirit]

I created something for PC players to help with their whiff punishment:

PC Players: Enhancing Training Mode using macro programs

Here’s another cool hack: Letting the dummy react to things you do! eg. If you want to figure out “safe” spacing for projectiles against different characters, you can hack a script that will let the dummy jump immediately (or with some delay to simulate human reactions) as soon as you throw the projectile. The hack is to set the button used for the projectile eg. fireball (punch button in this case) to run the script. So every time you throw a fireball, the dummy will jump over it and attack (o…

[Chousuke]

I think spacing is more important to whiffpunishing than raw reaction speed. My reactions are not the fastest, but even I can punish whiffed normals if I know that they can’t hit me… Ken is a good example; just stand outside their f.mk range, wait for them to move forward, and punish it also helps to know what to punish with. The other day I tried whiffpunishing Chun Li’s sweep with my own, and to my surprise Ryu’s foot just went through Chunli I saw the character models overlapping.

[deadfrog]

Whiff punishing normals is only worth it if you’re playing at high levels. Most people don’t play at Daigo’s or Alex Valle’s level. They probably learned whiff punishing after they learn to be solid in every other area.

The first sentence of this is quite wrong but the second half is absolutely right.

Whiff punishing is one of the key aspects of basic footsies. Footsies–being the short-range neutral ground game in SF’s more “classical” matchups–begin to emerge when both players understand the concept of risk versus reward, can anti-air jump-ins proficiently, and have discovered/developed ways of effectively dealing with random long-distance special moves (ones that are activated from around… ohh, let’s say half-screen or further away). I would say that this represents casual intermediate level or tournament beginner level, but these kinds of labels are totally arbitrary and subjective anyway. (Keep in mind, of course, that some characters are more footsies-based than others, and some will want to avoid playing footsies as much as possible.)

And they don’t “react” to the poke. They react to sudden movement and assume that it’s a specific poke.

For any buttons that are even remotely slow, they are indeed reacting to that specific poke. With experience in a matchup, you learn what you should be looking for, and where and when.

For any fast buttons, you are correct: they’re just reacting to the movement. Keep in mind, though, that you’re not really going to be punishing any whiffed fast normals on reaction; if you’re “punishing” these, you’re actually hitting your button pre-emptively as a guess counter-poke which, if you guessed wrong, could in turn leaves you open to be whiff-punished.

It’s worth noting here that a popular second-order tactic in footsies is for you to deliberately whiff a fast normal as a fake slow normal, in an attempt to bait a whiff punish from a nervous/twitchy opponent, which grants you the opportunity to punish their whiff. Notice that, depending on ranges and priorities, your fast normal can also double as your own pre-emptive action to stuff anything your opponent might happen to stick out at the same time.

The same is with fireballs, which is also a poke. This is why high level players react to st.lk and jump thinking it’s fireball.

You can bait people of any skill level* with this and similar tricks. In case I need to spell out the obvious here, higher-level players on average tend to be harder to bait in such a manner; this is one of the (many) things that make them high level players. Concordantly, lower-level players tend to be more easily fooled.

• And just because I know somebody’s going to think it or say it: “absolute beginner” is not a skill level.

In the case of the shoto st.lk, the real strength of the fake isn’t to actually bait that jump-in; it’s to make them hesitate about jumping in when they see a twitch, when they see that movement. This means they will react more slowly when you actually do throw a fireball.

To make the st.lk fake as effective as possible, first do a pump duck (tap down to crouch for a split-split-second) and press the st.lk as you stand. This makes it look like you’ve just inputted the fireball motion. If your character doesn’t have a qcf+k special move, some players choose to actually do the fireball motion and press st.lk at the end; this also allows them to choose at the very last possible moment whether they want to just fake (the st.lk) or actually throw a fireball (press a punch instead). In some cases, players won’t even bother pressing the st.lk; the pump duck can be a good enough fake on its own, and it has no recovery.

[pieton]

I think theres an important psychological aspect that make whiff punishing hard. When youre close to you opponent its hard not be focus on blocking.
It much easier to whiff punish if you can be standing up so you have to know your perfect distance so as not to crouch when it aint neccessary.

[SRKSieg]

I have just found out for myself… That whiff punishing is way easier with the right conditions. Before now, all my experience has been on a PS3 on a laggy LCD TV. I tried whiff punishing on an Xbox 360 and on a more responsive TV. Huge, huge difference. I had been trying to practice whiff punishing on my PS3 forever and would only get probably 1/20 successful whiff punishes. The one day I decided to try on the Xbox 360 with a better TV, I get like 8/10… from 5% to 80% maybe higher… I might not be the difference between PS3 and Xbox (but there is some possibly questionable evidence of input lag on PS3). I guess that it is most likely a difference in TV response times.

[scrub15]

Another thing I’ve discovered is:

Purposely whiff your low forward at around mid range. If you do it correctly, then it cannot be punished by sweep (as it’d be too far away but not obvious to your opponent). With this, you can bait out their sweep and land your own sweep : p

[Super_eel]

So guys, does it mean if you don’t have good reactions, you can’t get good at this game at a high level play?

[ilitirit]

So guys, does it mean if you don’t have good reactions, you can’t get good at this game at a high level play?

You can train yourself to whiff-punish cr.mk if you know when and where to look for it. I have very slow reactions but I can whiff punish it nearly 80% of the time when I recognize the situation. It’s something that I taught myself in training mode.

[Sh33p]

sorry guys, but isn’t whiff punishing a central facet of footsies? “Sweep the leg” and all that?

[ilitirit]

sorry guys, but isn’t whiff punishing a central facet of footsies? “Sweep the leg” and all that?

Footsies is broader than that. Whiff-punishment stems from spacing and movement. A lot of it has to do with the concept of personal space and trying to bait/force a reaction from your opponent by dancing around in their personal space. The reaction can either be an errant move that whiffs, or a long recovering poke that you can jump, or forcing them to sacrifice screen position by moving backward, or jumping at you. At high levels of play, the player most comfortable playing in that area and that has the best knowledge of spacing (and reactions to AA and whiff-punish) usually wins the ground game.

[littlescumbag]

What’s so funny? Do you not understand how important punishing whiff normals is and how much your gameplay will improve? It essentially gives you more techable knockdowns, more chances at damage and pressure, and really improves your game as a ryu player. I’m fairly certain that 99.9% of us in the ryu forums don’t even have 20% of Valle or Daigo’s level of footies.

100% agree and true

i’ve come to an level where i just cant imrove anymore,and i see that i am not getting better…after a few days of thinking i saw that what i lack to further imrove is punishing wiffed moves (aka imrooving my footsies) and working on option selects

i am now in that phase i am allready sensing i am geting results in many matchups