T Hawk problem

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
21

Stored Oicho is the most BROKEN thing in vanilla ST. Not because it’s too powerful and dominates other characters, but because it’s just really stupid. The fact that it wasn’t fixed, IMO, is a crime. Why should a character get a throw for free? It has better range, can be reversaled, if you are out of range, he Jabs and is completely safe, and if you try to sweep him, he is blocking! And he’s still charged for ALL of his special moves. At least if it were not storable, he’d have to sacrifice his charge to try a throw attempt. It’s totally lame. It eliminates an ENTIRE option against him. No one EVER tries to run up and throw Honda because of it. And it completely eliminates any form of close-up mind games vs. Honda. You ever see ANY character try to fight Honda up close? Never! 'Cause it’s pretty much suicide. Any hole in a close-up game = grabbed. It basically just makes it so that if you are anywhere near him, he wins. There is absolutely 0 good things about the Stored Oicho Throw.

But I’m not bitter.

  • James
22

I’d trade stored ochio and even an ochio wiff for O.Honda’s cancelable jabs any day of the week!

23

Agreed as well.

24

Wrong… Sirlin gets to keep using his favorite character’s broken throw. That is ONE good thing from Sirlin’s prespective. :wink:

25

You and me both, man. Against most characters, O Honda up close > N Honda up close. If I could get O Honda’s standing short/forward trips, crouching fierce sweep, standing fierce chop, and cancelable standing/crouching jabs, I’d give up ochio and all of R Honda’s changes but the easier slaps and more controllable jumping fierce. The new jumping short, jab headbutt, and super are all nice, but they’re icing on the cake, and I don’t really think Honda needs them.

26

One thing that just clicked in my head thinking about it earlier was how funny it is that hawk gets a whiff and honda doesnt have one. They took away the one redeeming thing about hawk and about the only thing he can use to win, yet let a stronger character keep the EXACT same mixup and situation when hes close. to fix that whole OMG INFINTE LOOP hawk has, they gave him a whiff yet honda has (essentially) the same loop. lol good one sirlin

27

Not at all. The ochio loop was entirely escapable by everyone, both by reversal attack to beat the tick and by reversal throw to beat both the tick and the throw. It was really just a mixup between tick-ochio, buttslam (to beat reversal throws and some reversal attacks), and nothing, and it was a good mixup, but it wasn’t even close to being what was for many characters a corner infinite in Hawk’s safe jump-negative edge 360. And even though the ochio loop was less deadly, Sirlin still took it out by making Honda bounce back after the ochio, and getting hit by ochio is less painful now anyway because the fierce version no longer does anywhere near as much dizzy as it did before (both of which changes are good, in my opinion). When I get to the corner or if I’m up against a character I can safe jump into after a fierce/roundhouse grab, I just do fierce/roundhouse grab now instead of ochio.

28

Yep, Honda is fucking disgusting. I hate the fucker. I will never use him because my pride gets in the way.

29

Honda hate thread?
Count me in!

I hate the new HD Honda, he’s even more unnecessarily powerful than regular ST Honda.

I hate his LP Headbutt soo much :mad:

30

Hatas hatin’ on playas :sad:

31

Honda couldn’t do the Negative Edge trick for tick Oicho throws as well? Wouldn’t it end up with the same result as T.Hawk since he had no whiff animation? I mean, yeah, he couldn’t get a second free Safe Jump after getting one off in the corner, but getting the Low Jab into Oicho was safe pretty much after the Low Jab wasn’t reversed, wasn’t it?

  • James
32

exactly my point.

33

From my point of view, Zangief wouldn’t change much if he didn’t have a whiff animation. Mainly because the way you execute his SPD also determines which way your opponent will be SPD’d.
If the opponent has his back against the wall (Zangief will come to his opponent and not vice versa) it’s most advantageous for Zangief to end his SPD command in u/f, f or d/f since it will SPD near the wall and he will not jump far back, which means continues ticks and mixups.
Executing the SPD this way also means you’re going to eat a reversal, if the opponent performs one, which beats out the purpose of no whiff animation. Zangief mostly have few chances to get in before he dies an agonizing death, therefore positioning himself advantageous with his SPD’s is crucial to winning a.k.a not taking advantage of no whiff.
I only see a noticeable difference when the opponent will die from one SPD or less.

34

Push/release Oicho throw was HELLA safe. I can make at least 3 solid situations where you can make it safe. True you don’t get the loop afterwords, but it was safe none the less.

Outside of personal bias (cough cough) there is no reason why he should have the stored throw. I can’t find any real point that can be argued on why he should have such a safe option to do such damage. (*Especially when you consider all his other buffs)

35

The negative edge part of the ochio loop trap was safe against all attacks, but it always lost to reversal throws. And the actual tick, the crouching jab or whatever, was unsafe against most characters’ reversal attacks and lost to everyone’s reversal throws. It was escapable for everyone.

Hawk’s corner infinite was a corner infinite against some characters because after a knockdown he got a free safe jump, a free post-safe jump crouching jab to put him outside of most characters’ throw ranges, and then a free negative edge 360 attempt; you couldn’t reversal throw him at any point, and if you reversal attacked at any point, you’d still get spun back into the loop, same as if you’d just sat there. At no point could you reversal throw him and at no point could some characters’ reversal attacks get them out of the situation. For these characters, there were no points of escape, you just had to hope that the Hawk player messed up.

The ochio loop was totally different. After an ochio in the corner, Honda was left right next to his opponent, didn’t have time to do a safe jump after, and didn’t have any safe way to get out of the opponent’s throw range. As a result, there were always two points of escape, the first against the crouching jab with either a reversal throw or (for most characters) a reversal attack, and the second against the actual throw attempt with another reversal throw (a reversal attack wouldn’t work, because Honda always negative edged the ochio). Of course, if Honda thought you were going to try to reversal throw him, he could do short/forward buttslam and knock you out of your throw attempt and back into the loop.

I’m not saying the trap was bad, it was very good, but its effectiveness came how hard it is to reversal attack/throw and from the Honda-favored mind games around whether Honda would tick or not tick or go for negative edge ochio or for buttslam, not from any kind of inescapability like T Hawk’s corner infinite had.

Again, I’d be totally cool with giving him a whiff animation and getting rid of the stored command. In the interests of balance, I think that would have been the best decision. I’m just pointing out that the ochio wasn’t broken before and now, when its bounceback has gotten rid of the trap and its dizzy factor is way down, it’s already less useful than it was before.

36

Well, that’s the thing… it WAS broken… to a certain portion of the cast. Before people really started using the Stored Oicho consistently, walking up to throw a turlte Honda was actually an option for characters like Fei and cammy with their fast walk speed. I could sometimes sneak it in before the opponent could react with a Jab headbutt miraculously, considering it takes NO reaction time for a Jab Headbutt. But now that people are good at Store Oichos, walking up to Throw him isn’t even an option.

Here’s another great example. Against Balrog, when I use Honda, everytime Balrog charges, I tap Jab. If Balrog does a Low Rush, I block and am safe. If he EVER does any other Rush (Kick or Straight), I Oicho him. Automatically. He can NEVER Kick Rush + Throw me ever. It takes NO reaction time, and there is 0% chance you’ll ever get hit. You may take Block damage, but so what? It’s not that big of a deal.

Also, let’s say I’m Honda and I walk up to an opponent. God knows why I am doing this, but let’s just pretend. If the opponent Jumps at me and I react with a Block, I will Block the Jump Attack, do the Oicho motion, and then at the end of every Block Stun, I tap Jab. The opponent basically has NO ability to hit me anymore. They can’t Sweep because I’m low Blocking. They can’t rush in to Throw me, because Oicho out-prioritizes them. If they put a hole in between the Jump Attack and the Ground Attack (or after the first Ground Attack if it’s a Short or a Jab), I throw them. The ONLY thing they can do is to do a Blocked Combo that ends with Block Damage. It’s pretty much for free. And if they stay out of range of the Oicho Throw, I Jab them, they are safe, AND I still have it Stored.

It’s just those kinds of things that make the Stored Oicho Throw so stupid. So while it may not have been broken to the entire cast (those who never have to deal with a Close-up Honda), it was VERY broken against the rest of the cast.

  • James
37

If your post was a response to me Mr. UD, I was not talking about oicho throw loops. :clown:

You can do a safe jump on several knock situations that lead into a safe N/E grab. Not to mention if the Honda spaces his ticks right, most of the cast cannot counter throw his Oicho throw. Look at its range on NKIs site. There are only three grabs with greater reach.

  1. Gief 360+P.
  2. Hawk 360.
  3. Hawk 720.

As I said, it is not as powerful as Hawks N/E set ups. But, I don’t think it belongs in the game. Sirlin nerfed all but Honda’s (no surprise) and Blanka’s multi hit grabs in the game but leaves a safe command grabs from the DB position. The Multi hit grabs were no more powerfull than the safe Oicho throw.

I would fair to bet if any other NON UBER HONDA FAN tweaked and balanced the game, or if you took the collective perspective of the SF expert community, the stored Oicho would no longer be in the game. **** Especially given all his new power ups.

And… no matter what you say… It doesn’t matter! You’re one of the biggest Honda fans of them all. :mad: Of course you not going to say/admit the move is busted! Well you’re busted buddy! We’re on to you ! :wink: LOL…J/K (Actually, I really enjoy your posts).

38

!!

You guys are right, ochio is still good. I also think I’m right in saying that ochio should have been made worse but that as it is in Remix it’s already considerably worse than it was before in ST, where it wasn’t broken. Maybe my threshold of brokenness is higher, but I’m only gonna call things like Hawk’s corner infinite broken (and even with that, I tend to agree that he should have gotten only more bounce back, not a whiff animation), and ochio just isn’t as bad as that. I think it would have been helpful for balance if ochio had gotten a whiff and lost the storing, but I think that’s less important than nerfing his jab headbutt or actually helping out Zangief and Cammy with their matchups against Honda.

The main reason is that it’s not really a good idea for most characters to try to throw Honda, and the characters who do want to throw him (Hawk and Gief) lose to Honda mostly for other, non-ochio reasons, like jab headbutt and slaps. Honda probably has the best regular throws in the game; his regular grab range is only a few pixels smaller than his ochio range and bigger than or as big as every other regular throw range in the game except Gief’s (he’s tied with Sim and Blanka), and his throws do huge damage and lead to some of the best post-throw setups in the game. So would it help Cammy and Fei if Honda lost storable ochio? Sure, maybe they’d get a few throws in every once in a while. But for the most part, at least Fei, on whom Honda can do fierce grab and then immediate jump toward short safe jump into more shenanigans, probably shouldn’t be taking that kind of risk.

While I think ochio should have lost storing and gotten a whiff, I think nerfing jab headbutt and actually giving characters like Gief and Cammy useful changes are more important.

39

100% agreed.

Stored Oicho is not the reason they lost. Jab Headbutt is definitely more to blame for it than the Oicho Throw. The complaint about the Oicho Throw (this is a T.hawk Thread!!! :rofl:) mainly comes from principles at this point… there was just NO reason to keep the Stored ability since it only hurt those he beats up really bad and doesn’t help him against those that beat him up badly, so changing it would have already helped in the battle to make Honda more balanced. But then again, you’ve already agreed to that whole argument so I’m beating a dead horse so I’ll STFU now. :slight_smile:

  • James
40

t hawk IS THE BEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME