Sesho if it was truly a cold war open it would be boxer/ken/guile vs gief which is unfair. Besides the japanese were on the axis so we could just say ryu is a nazi.
Unessential, what bad matchups does chun li have? The tiers are based on overall matchup numbers, that’s why simd and o.gat are so high, they have a lot of dominant matchups but they both have bad matchups as well (sim vs gat, claw vs sim). Who does chun li lose to so badly? Her worst matchup is hawk ffs. She goes even with every other top tier. Her matchups are more balanced than sim or o.gat but she doesn’t have any matchup that can feel almost unwinnable like more self explanatory with boxer and claw.
Idk how to do ryu vs guile or charge bvs motion tourney but the japanese did it.
LOL hawk is chun’s worst matchup? Hawk is in chun’s favour. Fei long, claw, ryu, and o gat all beat chun.
I never said she loses to people really badly, but she does have bad matchups. your title was “no bad matchups” which she obviously does have.
it doesn’t matter if she goes even with all the top tiers, that just tells you she does better at tournaments than what consensus matchup charts suggest.
If hawk’s matchup’s all skyrocketed but he still lost to cammy 8-2 (and in some people’s minds this has happened), would you still say he has “no bad matchups”?
her worst match up is definitely NOT hawk. you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about if you think that (at least w. regards to chun) hawk is in her advantage. Her worst matchup would probably be against fei long or o. sagat (new gat, she beats 7-3 ish, o. gat it’s the reverse). the DP damage and fireball speed makes a huge difference between n and o gat. that N.gat is rarely ever worth using. (personally, I think n gat is never worth using when compared to o gat)
she has at least two 7-3s. Sim in the hands of someone knows what their doing, has none. Maybe a 6-4 claw. some would say that’s match is even.
and o gat definitely beats everybody.
fei long vs chun feels either like a 5-5 or 8-2 depending on if fei can get chun in the corner. and fei has such an easy time getting chun in the corner than chun has trying to stay out. that match can feel unwinnable. I’d much rather face Ganelon’s claw than cigargirl/Hypen’s fei long. It’s about equal between a good claw player and a fei player of a lesser level. but I have more experience vs claw, and the claw matchup has more of a randomness to it that can turn to my favour then a fei matchup.
CigarBoB’s fei? … ugh.
I mean it’s not even the just fact that you said chun I mean even if you included her with either sim OR o. gat I wouldn’t have taken it so literally to mean “no bad matchups” and be more of a “tier whore” tournament. (if you included sim and not o.gat I would have just thought you didn’t include o. characters)
especially o.gat. he should be a shoe in for a “no bad matchup title”
You guys have some interesting ideas on matchup numbers.
My vote for Chun’s worst matchup goes to O.Gat. Sure, she can turtle back and build meter while blocking tiger shots in the corner, but she’ll end up eating a lot of chip to get there, and once she gets super, she completely loses any advantage she has once that super is gone. That match largely depends on Gats ability to zone, Chun’s ability to match fireballs and dodge, with the metagame revolving entirely around the time she gets super and is allowed to walk forward without eating a tiger.
Sim has few bad matchups in the hands of skilled experts, but until then, every Sim player in the world is going to have a rough time with many matchups. Only at the absolutely peak of Sim mastery and control does he begin to become dominant, and there’s only a handful of players in the world who can claim that status. Most definitely Claw is his worst matchup, and I peg it as a solid 7-3 in Claw’s favor. While Sim can fight him off while he’s standing, and claw is susceptible to noogie trap mixups, Claw can absolutely wreck his shit with wall dive tricks, and bad trades for Sim. Not to mention Sim is required to play a perfect game in order to win even his equal or good matchups, otherwise he gets tore up by wake-up games.
As far as O.Gat’s bad matchups, I feel like he’s an extremely dominant character at beginner and intermediate levels. Once he reaches top level talent, he begins to lose effectiveness. Althoug he’s considered top tier, he also loses to the top tiers, and imo, his toughest matchups (not necessarily by the numbers), would be claw, boxer, sim, and to an extent, dictator.
Yeah. Fei and o gat are chun’s hardest matchups. both 3-7 (I like to say the 5-5 and 8-2 scenarios average out to 3-7 :lol: ). she has a whole bunch of evens and 6-4s (both directions) and she beats everyone else.
Yeah, at worst I can see Sim v Claw being 7-3. But yeah. I was talking about absolute master play for sim. (which. Honestly, I’ve never actually played against/seen any. EVER. MAYBE one.) My idea of the master sim player is from gamplay footage / discussions with MANY sim players I would even say that there might not be a master sim player out there since he’s so hard to learn.
Actually in my previous post, I was assuming, “master level” play… Personally In my own play. yeah. I think chun is at a disadvantage against hawk. But I don’t think that’s due to the inherent disadvantages of the characters. I think it’s because I just don’t know that matchup well enough.
ElT, so claw boxer sim dictators are o gat’s worst matchups? Do you still feel at a high level gat still has an advantage in his bad matchups? or are his bad/worst matchups actually disadvantage matchups? and by how much?
and yes. That means I think absolute masters of o.gat don’t have ANY disadvantage matchups. much like boxer/claw.
and after that Sim. with one bad matchup.
In my mind you would have to justify not including ALL those characters (Boxer, Claw, O Gat, Sim) before including chun.
Hawk beats Chun. O.gat barely beats Chun, that’s like 55-45. Fei Long vs Chun is not 7-3, that’s a joke. that’s in chun’s favor. Ryu vs Chun is an equal match. Claw is annoying but honestly it’s not that bad. Chun has good air normals to deal with wall dive. It’s just that when Claw has the life lead he can turtle and Chun can’t do a whole lot.
As for o.gat, he gets countered by a strong air game (claw, sim, dictator) and supers that shut down his tiger game (chun, boxer, and again dic). But those matchups aren’t THAT bad, some are even or in o.gat’s favor slightly, but Sim tears o.gat’s asshole in half. That’s a bad matchup. You cannot argue that.
Hawk loses to Guile, Chun and Dee Jay. But he can guess right once and beat them with his throw loops, or take advantage of a mistake, such as leaving holes in combos, accepting jump-ins, etc.
Dhalsim is hard to use, but also not that hard, IMHO. Once you get the timing for reversal throws, there’s actually very little other chars can do against you on wake-up, unless they can land ambiguous cross-ups. And once you stop spamming pokes and projectiles, you start beating sevral characters consistently.
I respectfully disagree about hawk losing to guile and chun. The hawk guile match is slightly in hawks favor because hawks cr mk stuffs guiles cr mk. Leaving guile with fast sonic booms to keep hawk out. Hawk jumping on reaction will lead to guile using cr hp to trade with hawks jumping hp. That trade is slightly in hawks favor. If guile falls at any time, its over. This match is definitely much more mentally straining for the guile player then it is for the hawk player. If you rate a match up be risk to reward, this is match is low risk for hawk, but super high reward.
The chun match is the same. if chun falls, she dies as well. a good chun player wont ever fall, but hawk can still spam safe hawk dives at chun if he aims below her head anywhere below her eyes. If the dive hits too high, chun can punish with a jump kick. Risk to reward goes to hawks favor in this match too.
This is assuming the hawk player can use all of hawks moves effectively. safe jumps and negative edge spd for guile, and sako ticks for chun.
There is a major problem trying to guess match up rankings with hawk. The problem is not everyone can do all of his moves effectively. Just think about if you where trying to do a match up ranking of ryu vs honda, but the ryu player can’t do fireballs. This is hawks problem. And even if players can do the moves, its not consistent. If you can only do something 7 out of 10 times, that will greatly effect the match up ranking.
An akuma only tournament is not a crazy idea at all.
We are all so used to have him banned from the tournaments but if everything is akuma mirror matches then it will be all balanced and fun.
folks some good news bad news, bad news is ima be unable to run the tournament due to working late but the good news is my pal Sergji will be running it with my partner ODLowKi so they will be running the tourney in my absence and it will be streamed by http://twitch.tv/arkadeum
so stay tuned…
