3rd Strike is not hard to learn. It’s sad people ever believed that it is.
It’s hard to beat good players when you’re new. The skill ceiling is quite high. That’s a good thing for a competitive game.
You’re right, it wasn’t hard to learn. My greatest achievement in 3S was managing to get a 20 game win streak at our arcade in 2000 or 2001 with Makoto. But, when I realized that I was never going to get the hang of parrying, and anyone who was very efficient with parries would hand my ass to me virtually each time, I realized I hit a plateau and I just wasn’t gonna get better. I didn’t like that I gave up on 3S after a while, but you’d be surprised at the number of people who felt the same way. 3S was the first and only SF game that I literally felt like I had reached my limit in it, and just couldn’t get better at it despite countless training and practice hours, even after its home release. Honest confession…
I just don’t want the same thing to happen to SF5. By no means do I want it to be an easy/remedial game, but it doesn’t need to be hard/elitist either, appealing only to those that will always win in tourneys with the same characters (or because they’ve mastered a mechanic that others can’t). We say a lot of criticisms about SF4, but you gotta admit that character diversity, and player diversity is something it’s done well over the years.
a game should be easy to learn and hard to master.
but the mechanics of a game should never be complex for complexity’s sake.
my fav 3D action game is Shinobi for the ps2.
Why?
because in that hack and slash game, unlike so many other games like Onimusha, DMC, or Ninja Gaiden…is that the character you control (Hotsuma) never “levels up” in the game. He doesn’t gain new level up powers or abilities through progression of the game.
The same powers you start off with at the beginning of the game are the same powers you end up with at the completion of the game.
What levels up during playthrough isn’t the character you control…what levels up is you.
What makes you gain an S rank from a C rank at the completion isn’t the tools your character has at the end of the game, its you.
well, that said, I prefer a game with simple mechanics where the focus is on match up knowledge and character balance,
not on super complex, spend 10,000+ hours in training mode gaining muscle memory learning ridiculously long extended combos. To be able to compete at a high level against high level players just using what truly matters which is the knowhow of exploiting your character’s strengths over your opponent’s weaknesses is what I gravitate towards.
I think that’s why “anime” games like Melty Blood and Guilty Gear never really became mainstream popular like Street Fighter and King of Fighters became. They stress so much attention on learning complex combos that take 10,000+ hours repeating over and over and mind numbingly over in training mode, and on learning the 50 different offensive/defensive technical options…that 90% of people just do not want to spend that much time learning something just to be “good” at.
they just don’t.
its why I stopped playing Melty Blood, Arcana Heart, and Guilty Gear.
I got sick and tired of always hammering out their complex combos in training mode.
a game should be a fun pleasure…not a chore.
Spoiler
which is sad because Melty Blood and Guilty Gear at a high level is very very footsie and spacing oriented. much more than lower level players realize the games to be.
its also why the old school KOF and SF games are vastly better than the more recent modern KOF/SF games.
Because Capcom and SNKP made the mistake of being influenced by the anime fighters and going down the “anime” fighter route of introducing long, hard to master complex combos that you can only really learn by spending 10,000+ hours in boring ass training mode, and throwing a bunch of offense/defense technical mechanics that also takes a very long while to implement correctly…into the dang games.
its incredibly repellent to the beginner.
And its not casualization.
its just practical.
Devs need to stop asking everyday people to dedicate 10,000+ hours in the game’s training mode before they can expect to enjoy it pvp.
seriously. just stop that shit.
not everyone has the time or patience to spend all that time on a single game.
The “hardcore” players can reply by saying "hey, who needs the casuals."
i’ll tell them, "you do. because without a large player base the game is dead right out the gate…and you’ll find yourself with a community made up of 3 people.“
playing with a small player base that stuck around and went through the pains of spending the 1,000,000,000,000 hours to 'git gud” and refer to themselves as “the hardcore” isn’t practical.
especially in the USA with its shitty net infrastructure and japan writing even shittier input delay based netcode…which might work out well in a tiny country of japan but becomes painfully obvious it doesnt work in a country spanning a massive continent with huge spans of distance between players.
a community made up of 3 great Arcana Heart players in America.
and 2/3 of those people who are “hardcore” good at Arcana Heart trying to play from New York to California without rollback is 100% bullshit.
then they wonder why their fav game dies.
Niggas talking about parries like they are dumb hard when it’s just pressing forward or down
“Niggas talking about 1 framers like they are dumb hard when it’s just pressing a button”
Even a red parry wasn’t as hard as a 1 frame link. DERP
Even then, oversimplifying parries like that does unjustice to the mechanic, insults everyone who cant get it down and trivialises the effort some people had put into it to master it.
It isnt “just pressing forward/down” it’s just as well about timing, reads and character knowledge. Of course the mechanical act is rather simple, just as using focus in SF4, but people still have trouble with it (at first)
Yea it’s not nearly as hard as a 1 frame link. Even 1 frame links aren’t the hardest aspects of the game, it’s just timing. Really bad metaphor bro
3S does shoot up your awareness though, especially when you’re fighting someone who is good at parrying, or you are good at parrying yourself, and just watching closely, or just thinking “that’s right you sunnava bitch, throw out that cr. MK with Ken ONE MORE TIME, just one more time, that’s all i need…” Then when you play SF4, it’s slow paced enough where you can kind of just coast, i can’t stand how good Cr. Jab is.
That summarizes how I feel about some fighting games. I have to emphasize the point you made in which you explain that not everyone has the time to learn the intricacies of every single matchup, frame data and insane set-ups/combos. I’m not a casual, but i’m not hardcore. I have maybe 2 to 3 hours to play a week and it’s virtually impossible to keep up with other people who have more time to invest in it.
Of course, that only makes sense; if you play a game for 100 hours odds are you’ll be better than he who played for 50. This aside, I feel like I hit a plateau(in the same fashion that SAOTOME2U did in sf3) where I couldn’t beat anyone anymore. It happened somewhere around AE 2012 when I got to rank B+ with claw, and after that I just couldn’t improve anymore because I felt like the ‘‘better’’ players knew the games mechanics just as well as I did, but the skill gap became more of a complex execution thing rather than strategy. SFIV has been dead to me since as I can no longer improve and I know i’ll get my butt handed to me almost every other game. The same happened with UMVC3, I just didn’t have the time to learn any of that DHC 100+ hit combo BS that required ridiculous amounts of training time. Every time i’d loose online it would boil down to ‘‘who could do the longer combo’’.
Although I know a lot of the SF community rips on the smash games; I have to say that one thing they got right is the fact that you barely need any training time to be able to compete. It’s easy as hell to learn, and I can say that is sure as hell is hard to master. The fundamentals are based on solid ideals; reading your opponent, exploiting your characters strength and your enemies’ weakness. Not to mention that the mind games you can play at high levels are quite amazing. I’m not saying SF should learn from smash, but I do think they need to ditch the ridiculous executional barriers they’ve brought since 2009. To finish, I just want to add that I wanted to learn C. viper really badly. I loved her character, her design and her theme…but there was simply no time to learn how to use her properly due to how unecesarilly hard she was to learn. Which always pisse me off. ‘‘Here have this character but you’re probably never going to be able to use her well.’’
The one request that I definitely would make is to give Ken back his warrior head band look that he had in the Alpha versions. He looked dope then. He still looks cool now, but I miss his head band that he had (though he gave it to Ryu).
Guys, please don’t start another execution vs strategy debate. That issue has been discussed to death.
No, one isn’t better than the other. Every decent game has a healthy dose of both aspects, with same games emphasizing one aspect over the other to cater to various players’ tastes. Learn to accept that and move on.
Some people love training their shots on a tennis court, while others love practicing their chess openings. This isn’t rocket science, and I’m sure it’s not going to surprise anyone here. So in the same vein, avoid posting essays about the types of games you like. It’s not constructive, novel or interesting.
Ken never had a head band. He had a loose ponytail with really long hair.
That’s what I actually meant. lol. I was going by the SFII animated movie; I just got finished watching it again xD lol. Sorry, guess it was on my mind & after I finished it. Had a brain fart.
to summarize, I was just making a point most peeps don’t either have the time or too dang lazy to spend 10,000 hours learning a characters extended combos in boring as hell training mode.
like, if I play KOFXIII, even if I outfootsie, outspace, out anti-air my opponent, pretty much dominate my opponent round for round, one whiffed anti-air of mine while he has full HD meter and its touch of death jump in into HD combo.
so I lose even if 90% of the match I dominated.
that’s cool.
I can accept that I lost because I didn’t spend 10,000 hours in boring training mode, hammering out the muscle memory to a character’s HD combos…
but when I ask myself "if all I really need to win is spend 10,000 hours in training mode getting these HD combos down to muscle memory."
I reply back to myself "mmmmmmmmm. nah. not worth it. I’d rather not dedicate every waking gaming hour on this one game. no time, even if I did…too lazy."
call me lazy.
I am.
call me casual.
whatevs.
doesn’t change the fact that I’m not willing to dedicate that much time to boring training mode learning mindless no look combos.
I’d rather just not play or uninstall the game.
and I think that’s 90% of people.
hence why the communities to these super complex fighters are so small that they are considered “niche” fighters.
I don’t mind spending 10,000 hours on a fighter…as long as its 10,000 hours well spent playing pvp. but god no! not in training mode.
jeez. training mode is THE MOST BORING thing in the world.
asking peeps to spend 10,000 hours in training mode just to be able to go online and compete pvp isn’t practical if you are a game developer and want your game to not end up as niche.
Taipei reveals and gameplay let’s go!
Stop repeating “10000 hours in training mode” as if it’s fact. You know how long 10000 hours is? That’s 1.15 years. Non stop. I doubt anyone has every spent this amount of time practicing combos in a fighting game. Even if you practice 8 hours a day for 365 days a year, that’s still not even 3000 hours. The simple fact is that you, as you said, are just lazy.
90% of people don’t want to practice to be good at something? Wow, that’s some great insight. I’ll push that figure up to maybe 95%. That’s not important or even remotely interesting. The thing is, the people who are willing to practice even though they don’t want to are generally better than the people who simply refuse to do so.
Here’s something that may shock you: if you consistently lose to other players that you thought you outplayed, you’re probably wrong. They beat you because they were better than you. It’s as simple as that. You think you may have better fundamentals, but you’re wrong. Execution is a fundamental aspect of Fighting Games. Otherwise we’d be playing them like Turn Based Strategy games.
You know how Daigo learned how to whiff punish on reaction? He played SF2 Turbo on his SNES at speed 10 with a friend and sat for hours trying to whiff punish Guile’s cr.mk.
Are you now going to complain that stuff like that is too hard and people shouldn’t be expected to have practice that hard in order to do that? Guess what? You AREN’T expected to. But there will be people who do put in the time, and they’re going to better than you. And it’s not because they somehow cheated by practicing, or that the developer’s expectations are too high.
Furthermore, if you don’t have time to practice, then you probably also don’t have that much time to play. Why should developers care about players who hardly play their game?
Your KOFXIII example is laughable BTW. Let’s say that this theoretical TOD combo that KO’d your entire team didn’t require practice at all, would you still play it? I mean, suppose it was like P4A, but you could just mash one button on hit to drain the opponent’s life bar. Would you honestly still play a game like that?
Last time I was logged in was before SSFIV was released. lol
My thoughts about this game…
meh
this console exclusive stuff doesn’t bother me, really. i got a Xbone, but at least a good pc, and without Sony this game wouldn’t exist.
Like KI wouldn’t exist without MS, right? RIGHT? I know, it’s their IP but … you know? maybe for the butthurt… don’t mind.
anyways, I like the little stage transitions they got going on there. Definitely better than in SFXT.
But the Noodles, dude… you know what I’m talking about. The pot should fall off after a jump or knockdown or something. Imagine Oni with freaking Ramen in his hair… the entire match.
The graphics… I can’t say too much about it since it’s early in development, but so far… it is ok, I guess.
gameplay… it seems kind of slow and bulky to me, but hey… still an early build and I’ve never had my hands on this game. I like the idea of the V-Trigger and how the element (water, lightning (Vesper arcade explained it very well in his videos) of every character influences it. I’m really excited to see Fire (Ken, Sagat), maybe darkness (Akuma, Bison, Dolls for example) and and other elements capcom can think of.
DID ANYONE NOTICE THAT NORMALS DOING CHIP DAMAGE?
I don’t know what to think about that. Or maybe normals are doing only chip dmg while V-Trigger is activated? have to check myself.
I really hope this game is a little more combo heavy than USFIV, but this is a personal thing, tho.
CHARACTERS: I’m ready for Nash’s story. what happened to him? I think his appearance almost confirms Guile, since he’s looking for him all around the world, smuggling water melons in his arms.
I really want King Cobra in this one. And maybe new characters that are not goofy af (rufus, el fuerte, hakan, i mean seriously Capcom) and there should be more strong female characters. how about a female master of martial arts… you know? an older one. that would be pretty cool.
We NEED Alex in this. I think he’d make a perfect fit. Judging from the footage we got now, almost every SF3 character would make a good fit. But for now, i want these characters to make a return
Alex
Q
Birdie
Boxer
Sean
skullomania (you know you want him)
Necro (I think, I’m the only one who wants him)
Ken
Guile
Zangief (only for snake eyez)
Karin
Ibuki
oro.
the rest of the cast can new
This is basically Divekick. So the answer is yes.
forgot to mention the pre-order exclusive character shen long