Street Fighter V Lounge "We on South Central crack addict status"

[Saitsu]

Yeah, SFA3 is the most non-SF Street Fighter game ever.

…I love it.

[DANZAN]

i would say SF4 holds that title , lol.

[Saitsu]

i would say SF4 holds that title , lol.

No…no it doesn’t. I know everyone likes to say that…but it’s really not the case at least in comparison to SFA3.

[Eternal]

No reason to play it since Alpha was a better game and a** real believable seque**l (even if he was a prequel).

Alpha 3 (which came out at around the same time as NG) doesn’t even play like a street fighter game for most of the time.

V-ISM plus cc infinites make the game feel like you’re getting hit with MvC3 TAC infinites for most of the time.

Come on d3v, you’re better than cherry picking a video SPECIFICALLY showing bullshit moments in fighting games. Plenty of matches don’t result in that kind of stuff. “Most of the time” is a bit of an exaggeration. However cc Infinites I agree are dumb, and you shouldn’t have started with full bar in SFA and MOST importantly, it was dumb vism built meter faster. However whenever there is no meter (which happens a lot, esp round 2) the game is very much like SF2.

Most of this the matches are straight up pokes, confirms, and spacing no vism combos. Now the combos do have a huge impact on the pacing when they come out but hardly “most of the time”

First 7 minutes of this one are a Zism gen blowing people up.

Huge number of these matches CC combos barely affect it and don’t even come out till very late in each round due to the fear of the opponent doing their own counter CC. Many the CC is countered by a poke.

I know you hate A3, but don’t sell as if most matches are whoever lands the first hit into CC type shit. True SF plays out A LOT. And to prove this ain’t cherry picking, simply search “acho zero 3” in youtube, each of these is in the top 4 videos that come up. First one is actually #1 and these are all 2014/2015 stuff not 2008 like your other video.

Yeah, CC is a big part of some matches, can’t claim otherwise, just don’t say “most of the time it’s not sf” I could easily go and pick some “shoshosho” shit for CvS2 and make the same claim if I wanted to and it’d be just as malarkey.

[Saitsu]

Except you know the difference between SFA3 and CvS2/SF2?

The pokes in the latter games ACTUALLY HURT. It’s not enough to have footsies and spacing and all of that. There needs to be actual reward and punishment related to it. For SFA3, the damage doesn’t pour on until CCs get brought into the picture or you’re the rare character playing X-Ism like Sakura or Sim.

In CvS2 or SF2, you get bopped with a Sagat Crouch Fierce or a Low Forward Fireball respectively, you immediately learn to respect that spacing. There’s very little punishment for the same in SFA3.

What separates those two games, and games like KoF98 from the rest is that you can completely rely on poking, footsies and fundamentals to carry you through because the reward for using those options is high due to the damage that they bring. Whereas in games like SFA3, SF4 and KoF13 that is not the case until significant meter is built up (though SFA3 has the benefit of having you start a match with Full Meter).

[Shockdingo]

I always wanted to see Oro in his younger days to compare with his main look. His freaky eye colours (they at times are pure white, red and sometimes shining blue) and yellow skin make me wonder if it’s all a sideeffect of his gaining so much power or something. For all we know, the SNH isn’t the only Martial Arts force that can alter you significantly when you fully tap into it.

[Eternal]

Except you know the difference between SFA3 and CvS2/SF2?

The pokes in the latter games ACTUALLY HURT. It’s not enough to have footsies and spacing and all of that. There needs to be actual reward and punishment related to it. For SFA3, the damage doesn’t pour on until CCs get brought into the picture or you’re the rare character playing X-Ism like Sakura or Sim.

In CvS2 or SF2, you get bopped with a Sagat Crouch Fierce or a Low Forward Fireball respectively, you immediately learn to respect that spacing. There’s very little punishment for the same in SFA3.

What separates those two games, and games like KoF98 from the rest is that you can completely rely on poking, footsies and fundamentals to carry you through because the reward for using those options is high due to the damage that they bring. Whereas in games like SFA3, SF4 and KoF13 that is not the case until significant meter is built up (though SFA3 has the benefit of having you start a match with Full Meter).

Doesn’t change the FACT “most” of the game does not simply devolve into CC activation infinite combo bullshit. MAYBE a 1/5th of any match devolves into that, MAYBE. Probably less. Which was my point, I could easily cherry pick some matches or parts of matches in CvS2 where shoshosho, paint the fence, ect makes you THINK that is the majority of the way the game plays. It’d be bullshit but I could do it. A3 is getting more hate than it deserves for things simply objectively untrue. Hate on the fact pokes without full bar don’t lead to as much damage, don’t claim most of the way the game is played is custom combo bullshit and no SF is played. If anything, due to the fact pokes lead to less you’re forced to use them more meaning more footsies are played out overall. Now is that a good thing? Probably not, but it’s the truth.

[Saitsu]

Except you know the difference between SFA3 and CvS2/SF2?

The pokes in the latter games ACTUALLY HURT. It’s not enough to have footsies and spacing and all of that. There needs to be actual reward and punishment related to it. For SFA3, the damage doesn’t pour on until CCs get brought into the picture or you’re the rare character playing X-Ism like Sakura or Sim.

In CvS2 or SF2, you get bopped with a Sagat Crouch Fierce or a Low Forward Fireball respectively, you immediately learn to respect that spacing. There’s very little punishment for the same in SFA3.

What separates those two games, and games like KoF98 from the rest is that you can completely rely on poking, footsies and fundamentals to carry you through because the reward for using those options is high due to the damage that they bring. Whereas in games like SFA3, SF4 and KoF13 that is not the case until significant meter is built up (though SFA3 has the benefit of having you start a match with Full Meter).

Doesn’t change the FACT “most” of the game does not simply devolve into CC activation infinite combo bullshit. MAYBE a quarter of any 2/3 involves that, MAYBE. Probably less.

And that’s fine. But SFA3 is still the least SF Street Fighter there is. And it’s all the better for it.

[Eternal]

Except you know the difference between SFA3 and CvS2/SF2?

The pokes in the latter games ACTUALLY HURT. It’s not enough to have footsies and spacing and all of that. There needs to be actual reward and punishment related to it. For SFA3, the damage doesn’t pour on until CCs get brought into the picture or you’re the rare character playing X-Ism like Sakura or Sim.

In CvS2 or SF2, you get bopped with a Sagat Crouch Fierce or a Low Forward Fireball respectively, you immediately learn to respect that spacing. There’s very little punishment for the same in SFA3.

What separates those two games, and games like KoF98 from the rest is that you can completely rely on poking, footsies and fundamentals to carry you through because the reward for using those options is high due to the damage that they bring. Whereas in games like SFA3, SF4 and KoF13 that is not the case until significant meter is built up (though SFA3 has the benefit of having you start a match with Full Meter).

Doesn’t change the FACT “most” of the game does not simply devolve into CC activation infinite combo bullshit. MAYBE a quarter of any 2/3 involves that, MAYBE. Probably less.

And that’s fine. But SFA3 is still the least SF Street Fighter there is. And it’s all the better for it.

Really? 3S juggles, parries, unblockables, chars with double jumps or glides, Genei Jin, Oro’s snot ball and rocks, TOD or near TOD combos, don’t make it any “more SF” than SFA3. There is bullshit in every game that makes it “not SF”. The whole “this game is more/less SF” is a bullshit copout thing anyway. There is no pure definition of what is/is not SF. Every SF game has different styles and mechanics. SF2 is less SF than SF1 because you can play more than 2 characters who are clones of each other. The definition of what is/is not SF has no objectivity to it.

Define what is an SF game and someone else will have a different definition.

[SAOTOME2U]

Except you know the difference between SFA3 and CvS2/SF2?

The pokes in the latter games ACTUALLY HURT. It’s not enough to have footsies and spacing and all of that. There needs to be actual reward and punishment related to it. For SFA3, the damage doesn’t pour on until CCs get brought into the picture or you’re the rare character playing X-Ism like Sakura or Sim.

In CvS2 or SF2, you get bopped with a Sagat Crouch Fierce or a Low Forward Fireball respectively, you immediately learn to respect that spacing. There’s very little punishment for the same in SFA3.

What separates those two games, and games like KoF98 from the rest is that you can completely rely on poking, footsies and fundamentals to carry you through because the reward for using those options is high due to the damage that they bring. Whereas in games like SFA3, SF4 and KoF13 that is not the case until significant meter is built up (though SFA3 has the benefit of having you start a match with Full Meter).

Doesn’t change the FACT “most” of the game does not simply devolve into CC activation infinite combo bullshit. MAYBE a quarter of any 2/3 involves that, MAYBE. Probably less.

And that’s fine. But SFA3 is still the least SF Street Fighter there is. And it’s all the better for it.

Really? 3S juggles, parries, unblockables, chars with double jumps or glides, Genei Jin, Oro’s snot ball and rocks, TOD or near TOD combos, don’t make it any “more SF” than SFA3. There is bullshit in every game that makes it “not SF”. The whole “this game is more/less SF” is a bullshit copout thing anyway. There is no pure definition of what is/is not SF. Every SF game has different styles and mechanics. SF2 is less SF than SF1 because you can play more than 2 characters who are clones of each other. The definition of what is/is not SF has no objectivity to it.

Define what is an SF game and someone else will have a different definition.

Well said Eternal. Though I share in @d3v distaste for SFA3, it’s hard to say a game is “not SF” because SF has changed, and implemented new things with each iteration – some more successful than others. Example – people hated chain combos in SFA1, people hated CCs in SFA2, and Vism is still a hotly divisive topic for SFA3. Every version of SF3 had its issues as well, and of course SF4 stuff is still debated. It can’t just be the same each time. Look at Mortal Kombat. We could say the newer MK games don’t “play like MK” because of all the new things they added to it since MK3, which was probably the most drastic changes of all the MK games.

Maybe I’m speaking outta both sides of my mouth when I say this, but something about SFA3 just didn’t feel right to me, and the Vism stuff was only a small fraction of my issues with it. I had issues with Zangief’s virtually invincible lariat, guard break, juggling, flipping out, full meters at the start, hits being kinda wonky…just to name a few. Yes, I am guilty of saying SFA3 didn’t feel like SF to me, and felt more like they were trying to appeal to and appease Tekken and MvC players. They put so many ideas in SFA3 that it didn’t feel fleshed out as it almost felt as rushed as what they said SFA1 was.

I guess my point is that, at it’s core, every SF games is SF and “can be played like SF.” But obviously, Capcom has to switch it up and add new mechanics to make it feel fresh or more up-to-date. Some things work, some things don’t.

[d3v]

People didn’t like CCs in A2 not because they were CC’s but because of the Valle CC glitch that made the it so that crouching normals were unblockable low immediately after the activation.

As for A3, the problem is that once there’s meter, the game stops being SF. V-ISM had so many issues alongside the cc infinites.

Then there’s other issues with the game such as how fireball zoning is flat out ass thanks to the system that decreased projectile damage the further out they were. It came to the point where you’d rather get hit at full screen since it did the same damage as chip (i.e. not much) and you gained so much more meter.

There’s no denying that A3 was hype, but for anyone looking for the intense footsie based battles of old (aka ST and A2), the game was a big turnoff.

[Eternal]

Personally, I still think SFA3 had a bunch of problems. I never was a fan of cc in most games I’ve seen it the thing ends up dominating the other options. I agree with d3v about the dumbness of lowering the size of many HBs from A2-A3, and I wish that there was a few more options for some chars in A3 beyond short short short - special kind of thing. No links and many chars didn’t have chains other than like 1 light and sometimes a bunch of their moves couldn’t combo from a light. Beyond a couple of the unique moves some chars had in Vism I’d have been happy with A3 not having it as an option at all.

I just think d3v was shitting on A3 (as he always does :P) and painting it in a way that was overly hyperbolic bordering on simply dishonest.

[blufang]

Ah the early days of A3 were glorious, Vism infinites weren’t discovered yet, most people picked A ism for everything. The game seemed so dynamic with its great big cast, and the 3 very different isms. I had a lot of fun in those days. It was a very ambitious game, unfortunately that led to some broken stuff. I don’t think Capcom anticipated the CC infinites, and the domination they would hold on the game.

[Gamogo]

Define what is an SF game and someone else will have a different definition.

SF2 Hyper Fighting is the purest SF game in my opinion. Thereafter the game started growing a lot of branches.

[Eternal]

Define what is an SF game and someone else will have a different definition.

SF2 Hyper Fighting is the purest SF game in my opinion. Thereafter the game started growing a lot of branches.

You haven’t defined what made the purest SF game, just that you feel it is the purest.

[d3v]

HF was the last competitively viable SF before ST added meter (yes,we had New Challengers in between, but that game wasn’t really well received). So HF (or to some, CE) were the last true “pure” SF games.

[NCK_Feroce]

HF was the last competitively viable SF before ST added meter (yes,we had New Challengers in between, but that game wasn’t really well received). So HF (or to some, CE) were the last true “pure” SF games.

SF1 is the purest SF of all time,let’s keep this childish discussion

It’s like a car series like the Ford Mustang, some love the old version and others the last ones. But they are all Mustangs.

[Naeras]

WALL OF TEXT, I just feel I have to actually reply to these points individually.

To be fair, I think a lot of the SF2 roster would have been ass in a parry system. In SF3, zoning in general was weak unless you had a strong normal (preferably cr.MK) that could confirm into super.
-Guile’s zoning and single-hit pokes would be worthless

His fireball would be bad, but good normals are still really important in 3S, and Guile almost always has good normals. I still think he could fare decently, the main reason Remy is ass is because his normals are terrible and he has no health.

-Remember how badly Focus hurt Dhalsim in SF4? Imagine him vs a focus with little to no commitment that leads into full combos.

Drills and his good throw range would have helped, but… yeah, Sim would have problems.

-Parrying Blanka balls lel. He would have been screwed.

Even though that move is his most iconic attack (asides electricity), it’s almost never instrumental to him being good. See CvS2 for that.
Him being a charge character aside, I actually think Blanka could do alright, as long as he had good normals. The fact that all supers in 3S are motions would also help him greatly.

-Gief would have been alright. Parry xx SPD would be sick.
-Honda would have also worked, but I’m skeptical about how Headbutt and butt smash would have fit in SF3
-Idk if T.Hawk would have worked; I must admit, the idea of air parry xx Condor Dive sounds sexy though
-Cammy’s cr.MK would have been solid, but we don’t know if we would get SF2 Cammy damage/options (ass) or SF4 Cammy damage/options (not ass)

:3

-Fei can’t play safe with single-hit pokes and rekkas. NEXT

Nonsense, Fei would probably fit nicely. Chun plays off of single hit pokes, Yang plays the rekka game, and both are really good.

-Dee Jay? hahahahahahaha

…I want to point out how good DJ was in ST, but he’s a charge character, which is a problem in 3S, so… yeah, I’ll give you this one.

-Boxer is too limited and slow compared to the rest of the SF3 roster. We already saw how Q turned out.

Q suffers mainly from terrible normals, defense and an almost nonexistent combo game. Boxer tends to be really good at space control and defense, and his supers being motion based would certainly help him as well.

-Claw might work, but I’m not sure if he could survive vs 3S Yun and Makoto

Agreed.

-After Remy, I don’t have any faith in Sagat for 3S

Again, Remys biggest problem actually wasn’t the fact that parries hurt zoning, it’s the fact that his normals were completely ass and he had no health and stun. A version of Sagat with good normals (that’s to say, any version that’s not his A2 incarnation) doesn’t need a good fireball game to be strong (again, see CvS2). c.HP xx super sounds really good as well.

-Not sure what to say about Bison. Are we talking Alpha/SFV, or SF2/SF4? Too many variables to think about.

Bison never having the same archetype tends to be confusing. Still, a version of him tailored for 3S I think could work.

Sooo… yeah, I don’t agree with you on most of these. =V

[mowr]

Let’s all agree to stop pretending that we don’t know what people mean when they say “not Street Fighter.”

They mean not grounded on solid strategy, a strong understanding of fundamental skills like footsies, mind games and conditioning. I.E. Street Fighter 2.

This is part of the reason why people say Viper, El Fuerte, Seth etc. aren’t considered Street Fighter. The risk/reward decisions any other character would have to make are built into their design. To a certain extent, being purely random for these characters and others like them (provided you have the execution to pull off your character’s setups consistently) is enough because the sum total of every guessing game you put your opponent into is a net profit. It’s simply a part of the character’s design that, if they mixup all options available to them, your opponent will statistically speaking not be able to guess correctly enough times to make up for the times they’ve guessed incorrectly. Conditioning is far less important for these characters and they’re hated for being able to ignore such a pivotal skill that other players using different characters have to earn and demonstrate in every match.

This is not true for a character like Zangief who on the surface appears to be based on making your opponent guess when he gets in. However, a purely random Zangief will die very very quickly without conditioning his opponent, because even though a 2f ~200 damage command grab sounds scary, the risk/reward is actually in the opponent’s favour if the Zangief doesn’t set it up properly. He has to earn that damage in more ways than one, first in demonstrating a strong control of the ground game and also demonstrating a very strong conditioning and mind-game approach to offence once he does earn that in.

I will always have far more respect for a strong Zangief player than I will a strong Viper or Seth player. Sorry not sorry.

[PVL_93_RU]

It is like MK…what if there was no sub zero, scorpion, lui kang, etc?

MK Deadly Alliance

Tekken without Jin?

Jin is not an iconic Tekken character albeit being connected to the main story

Several factors contributed to SF3’s commercial failure but the lack of SF2 characters is definitely in the top 3. Capcom could’ve solved this actually by adding 4-6 classic characters (that were not shotos) during the games lifespan (or 4th/Final Assault?) but they were stubborn, which ultimately backfired.

I’d say it is easily #1. MvC1 and later MvC2 were still very popular in arcades. Alpha 3 was way more popular cause it had a larger cast including many familiar faces. SF3 was drowned out by other Capcom fighters. You could play as many of your favorite iconic characters in SFA3, or many of the legendary Marvel characters in the VS games, or you could play as strange unfamiliar characters in SF3. The choice for most was easy.

Also no PlayStation 1 release, Dreamcast died pretty quickly, the PS2 version only came like 4 years later, then the Xbox version another year later, so the release and platform choice also didn’t help Third Strike to become more popular among the fans