Not every normal in SF4 can be special canceled, every normal in SFxT can be boost canceled into the next level of strength. That is a terrible and misleading comparison.
You buffer shit in Sf4 if you’re playing a motion character, but even then that’s not the main damage source for every character the way it is for just about the entirety of xT.
Not every character wants to frame trap, not every character wants to play traditional streetfighter, some characters need to get close, some characters die when you get close. There’s a much larger variety in successful character strategy and playstyle.
Lack of variety in successful strategies or playstyles doesn’t make a game bad. The same can be said for other games that people live and die by. Theres a dominant playstyle or strategy, and your character uses it to varying degrees or your character is shitty.
The problem comes when you execute this kind of game with sf4s engine. It plays out very slowly on its own, and the same-y lengthy combo structure for 50 characters all comes out as unappealing.
Yeah and if your Boost is blocked, your ass is grass (unless you’re Bison).
How is that not a fair comparison… So when evil ryu buffers fireball off of a low forward into a huge practically unscaled combo it’s ok, but when a point character does a boost combo that is heavily scaled it’s the worst thing ever.
And boost combos are not the main source of damage in the xT. Unless maybe your using a Tampa bison type team and are looking to play the lame game. Which is like maybe 10% of the teams available.
Sfxt actually allows for every type of playstyle, even the lame game, unlike sf4 where dhalsim deejay and guile are all low tier for a reason. Funny thing is I actually don’t mind sf4… It just some comparisons I see that don’t make sense to me when compare to xT.
didnt SFxT attempt to lure players from Tekken games, at least till TTT2 arrived?
It seems it was those players who abandoned the game much earlier than expected.
I explained quite clearly why it’s not a fair comparison: Not every normal is special cancelable. Every normal is chain cancelable. It’s two totally different beasts. I’m not saying one style of combo system or gameplay style is better than the other, I’m just saying you are giving a totally unequal comparison.
Also your statement about Evil Ryu’s “huge practically unscaled” combo comparison is odd (btw by the end of the combo you are talking about he is at 40-30% scaling). First off Evil Ryu spends half his meter just to start said combo while boost to launcher is free. Second off the scaling system in SFxT and SF4 are identical. What is done in SFxT is boost combos attacks SPECIFICALLY have natural lower damage by a % vs their normal counterparts. The combo itself isn’t scaled any more than normal.
Example
SFxT - Ryu does crMK xx sHK xx Launcher = 60(100%) + 63(100%) + 40 (80% scaling). The next attack will do 70% of it’s normal damage.
SF4 - Ryu does crMK xx fireball - FADC - crMP = 60(100%) + 70(100%) + 48(80% scaling). The next attack will do 70% of it’s normal damage.
Boost combos don’t actually change scaling, it’s just that the chained versions do less damage period. Just like how say: Evil Ryu’s farHP does 120 damage/200 stun but his sMP xx farHP the farHP does only 90 damage 100stun but the combo is still the same amount of scaling.
The only difference in how SFxT scales is how many moves end up getting used is usually higher for most combos as the individual attacks tend to do significantly less than SF4 but because many other moves allow followups it sometimes balances out. For example Zangief’s Lariats only do 100 damage in SFxT both for Kick and Punch(though the later frames of punch can do 120), however in SF4 Kick lariat does 110 and goes up to 130 on laters frames, while Punch lariat does 120 and goes up to 140 on later frames. Many normal attacks have had their damage levels significantly lowered and then normalized across the board so most characters normals do the same damage. SF4 Ryu’s farHK does 120 damage SFxT it does 90, his farmk, clsMP, and clsMK all went from 80 to 60 in SFxT. Actually the scaling being the same as SF4 was one of many peoples complaints early on in SFxT because it naturally has longer combos but after a handful of moves you’re scaled very low and your attacks which already do less on individual hits are scaled a lot now.
I guarantee you that people are starting to get tired of Evil Ryu because he is everywhere and has a key combo you see a lot and it lasts a while (for SF4 combos at least). Of course the full combo he does requires he hit the crMK really deep other wise he has to do crMK xx Fireball - FADC - FarMP xx HK Tatsu which is hardly a huge combo at 2bars for only 240 damage 350 stun, and the time it takes is pretty quick. Which brings up the point that if you can do a boost to launcher you are always in the position for the same combos other than maybe a corner only combo and typically speaking most characters can do a boost to launch at max range or near max range off a number of their normals (AFAIK). Meanwhile SF4 you always need to adapt your combo options to how the opponent is positioned and sometimes specifically what character you are fighting due to their hurtboxes being different (hello Elena). While this may not be as rewarding it is more interesting for viewers and many players find it fun.
Lastly, the Evil Ryu combo is one that a lot of top players struggle with execution wise (even Daigo and Sako drop it decently often) and it’s one of the highest damage examples in the game. You aren’t really pulling a fair comparison by using one of the most extreme examples in the game when discussing how people view the majority of another game. It’d be like bringing up Sakura’s cvs2 Aism guard break combo as an example of how everyone in CVS2 is at armor breaking.
We had this discussion a while back, and I’m not saying you can’t like what you like. And others brought up many fair points about how SFxT works vs how SF4 works but the stuff you’re presenting is really lopsided or simply not applicable to the the comparison. You are also putting words in peoples mouths by saying things like “when Evil Ryu does this it’s ok” as though people are saying SF4 is perfect and only picking on SFxT.
Or you’re playing a character who can do a relatively safe EX Move and their last button is special cancelable (Bob’s roll for instance, He also has a safe on block boost option on top of that. There are others like Shotos with EX Fireballs or chun’s EX fireball also or her EX LLs at only -3F. Dudley can do an EX Ducking or EX MGB. Elena has EX Lynx Tail.)
-Still not seeing much of a difference from buffering a normal from a normal than a special from a normal, it’s used for the same purposes. I used evil ryu as an example to show how it’s effective in sf4 as well. Doesn’t matter how much it scales by the end of the combo it still does close to 50% health lol. Where boost chains do like 5%. This is not only an evil ryu thing btw. I could name plenty more combos off of buffered normals
-thanks for explaining the scaling of combos, but you just said yourself that each normal chained does less damage, so why would you not just use links. Plus if your doing sf4 type damage in sfxt you will never kill a character.
-There are tons if space dependent combos in sfxt, so that’s def not only in sf4. Something as simple as ryu cr.mk>> st.hp doesn’t even connect at most ranges lol. Can tell you haven’t played xT much.
-so making a boost chain safe by using an ex is so different from making an unsafe special move safe with a fadc in sf4? Btw Dudley doesn’t even have ex ducking in xT.
Sorry couldn’t type more in detail… Typing from a phone is annoying lol.
Yeah, and they are two completely different games. Marketing gimmick that failed. TxSF is going to fail too. I hope it doesn’t come out. They are better off adding SF guest chars into T7 or T8.
But not to the same effect. If I get hit by Chun’s s.MP in SF4 I take about 60 damage unless she has super. If I get hit by it in SFxT she can chain it or use the EX Fireball to confirm into a full combo. Practically the same button, completely different threat factor in the neutral game.
SFxT’s system took a button like E.Ryu’s c.MK and turned everyone’s buttons into that.
In SF4 you have a neutral game dynamic with a character like E.Ryu where his s.MK is actually a better button than his c.MK in terms of priority, but doesn’t lead to damage. So what’s the purpose of that? Well the use of s.MK is to frustrate your opponent so that you can use c.MK. In SFxT’s system s.MK would just chain into something else and combo most likely.
As a result it changes the dynamic from “damage button vs frustration button” to “almost everything’s a damage button”. SFxT’s neutral game still has the game of button X beats button Y, but you lose the dynamic from SF4 that your money button is not always your best button. Also that and sweeps in general are devalued between the fact that almost all other pokes lead to 300+ combos while the situation after sweep is “meh” in SFxT because of the roll and other mechanics.
Those are some of the particular reasons I don’t like SFxT’s ground game as much as SF4s even though SF4 has to deal with all the dive kick BS.
And people are definitely getting tired of seeing e.ryu 20 second combos. It’ll reach a breaking point when Topanga league comes around again.
Fortunately the game isn’t 30 characters fishing for fadc combos off pokes
This. If everything is cancelable into your combo starter (like SFxT), then your best move in neutral automatically becomes your ONLY move. It also limits design space, since you have less ways to differenciate every move from each other, apart from giving them a different role in combos. Which is also terrible design.
Also, I don’t understand how people like SFxT’s neutral game more than SF4’s, when there’s literally zero footsies/whiff punishing in that game. Hitboxes are generally much stronger in SFxT than in SF4, and whiff punishing is almost impossible due to non-existent hurtboxes and moves with absurdly long ranges. It makes moving around to make the opponent’s nomals whiff less rewarding and promotes blocking a lot more.
I actually watched some high-level SFxT footage to see if it’s just me not being good, and no, there’s still very little footsies there. This is not to say it’s a bad game (even though I think it is), it’s just a different approach but it’s definitely not a street fighter-y approach. I agree that some of SF4’s mechanics do hinder the neutral and fundamentals of street fighter but as loyalsol said, when you do get to play it on that level it’s actually enjoyable and has also a nice pace to it.
The thing is though in sfxt you still can’t just throw out boost chains… Boost chains are unsafe so if chunli uses st.mp you’re not gonna go through with a fierce. You still need your frustration buttons or else your opponent will just keep walking up block and letting you kill yourself with unsafe boost chains.
I actually use point Dudley and I still use every single normal that he uses in sf4. For example, against a normal like chunlis st.mp I’m still gonna be buffering st.hk into MGB just like in sf4. Still whiff punish with cr.mk and cr.hk. I use his forward mp,even though you can’t chain from it, to frustrate people since it prob has the best hitbox of all his buttons. Still use st.hp and forward hp for their range.
For my anchor Christie I use even more buttons in the foostie game. And to be honest I never really even use boost chains with her, unless maybe if I whiff punish with cr.mp.
Honestly I think boost chains just gives you more options.
You are right you can’t just throw it out, but most of the top tier characters have moves besides boost combos you can throw out instead. I played the game and I used Chun’s s.MP > EX Fireball a lot for fishing. Because if it hit I could link another s.MP and boost from there. It was generally safe and fully comboed if done correctly. There were safe ways to fish for damage and the boost combo was great for whiff punishing.
I did play SFxT and won tournaments for the game. So I am well aware of exactly what the ground game entails. That’s why I don’t particularly care for the game because for me it was just not that interesting. That and the game was 20 times more frustrating to play against people who were playing bad fundamentals because random DPs would combo into max damage, random hits were worth large amounts of damage, and trying to get someone to stay put on defense was annoying as hell.
Sad part is this debate really changes nothing. SF4 is here to stay until SF5 comes out, SFxT has been clinically dead for a year. The people who like it will still continue to like it, those who don’t have had their minds made up long ago for various reasons.
It’s nice to take a look back on things like this but I think everything’s been proven.
That Taipei SF5 exhibition has an astounding amount of dislikes. Capcom is going to be in deep shit if they don’t make some sweeping changes to the game. Even Daigo said the game felt too slow… and that’s coming from someone who has been playing SFIV for over half a decade.
Tokido was asked once which game he finds most enjoyable at high level. He said SSFIV because the game is well-balanced, the level is high outside Japan as well and because it’s similar to SFII in that it has a good ground game.
It’s ultimately why I think long combos are not good for a game in the long run. They might look flashy the first time you see it, but once you get used to them they just kill the pacing.
I’m not going to lie even KOF 13, a game I loved, was guilty of that at times. HD combos were typically not that long, but things like Beni’s lightning loops, Ash combos, Joe combos, etc. just took too long.
Changing topic, so what if SF5 is a success and becomes more mainstream/esports, do you guys think there will/should be constant balance patches… like once a year? Or at least until the general consensus is that the game is properly balanced?
Since the prize pool is getting so big, you are starting to see more people counterpicking or playing a secondary character more than ever. I hope SF doesn’t eventually become a counterpick fest all to win that fight money.
Well the patches USF4 had are already causing problems so meh.
Yeah as I mentioned earlier the time of release for SF4 was a big reason to its success as well as being labeled as an SF2 for a new generation. I was thinking you were using ‘special’ more in the grand scheme of things. However I’ll give it to you, SF4 didn’t need to be special to succeed. SFXT which looks like a lower res SF4, and was released with so much competition really had to stand out to succeed. Then there was the dlc fiasco, and the death knell of any fighting game…no arcade release.
Daigo and Nuki also said SF4 was garbage. However this SFXT vs SF4 discussion has been done a million times, it is pointless. There is a high probability that SF5 will draw from SF4, so that is something to be very concerned about. There is little chance it takes anything from SFxT, since it wasn’t nearly as successful. I am hoping they ignore SF4 and SfXt and draw from the earlier street fighter games in addition to creating something new and fresh.