1581

what are the weaknesses of kens lp and hp dp?

vframes says:

lp has lower body invincibility and throw invincible. so, moves that hit near his head beat it? when would such a thing even occur??

hp: invincible 1-3 frames and throw invincible after. so, what? its not like you can challenge this without making it whiff. unless theres something i don’t know, this seems random.

1582

They’re unsafe. Unless you’re trying to develop some vortex OS shenanigans, just blocking slightly out of throw range is the most obvious way to deal with it. It’s not like he can chip kill with them anymore, either.

1583

LP really just dodges lows, HP will trade at worst with a meaty but as it only does 60 damage on the first hit it will trade against him if you start with a heavy. Really, you should be doing MP unless you need the 3f DP to punish.

1584

The official SFV facebook page just dropped this

LOL so funny haha hehe lel ok no capcom seriously is there no limit to your bullshit

1585

yeah most kens do mp, but there are some who use others, almost randomly. as i was looking at the weaknesses of them i felt they were weird. but hp should beat a meaty because its invincible for 3 frames

1586

I get what you are saying. However I think that thing about it is that as far as cr. lp and cr. lk go, they both link into st. lk, which then cancels into bullhead/EX Bullhead/EX Bullhorn. This is something I use in that distance where a FANG wants to use coward crouch under normals since if timed well, usually I can score a counter hit from them. Again at the very least Birdie can reversal the followup and go for a meaty/throw mixup off of the knockdown.

Also keep in mind that if Birdie is in V-trigger he has a lot of better options available too, and it is easier for him to build and throw items in this matchup to me. At the end of the day, I feel as if FANG doesn’t have an advantage over a V-triggered Birdie and even vs regular Birdie.

1587

Most of that can be said for chun as well:

She doesn’t get in against him great since he has good AA, and his does more damage than hers as well, and he’s the one with the divekick in the matchup to make sure chuns AA isn’t to on point.

Having said that, mutton man brings up a good point about chuns Fmp… It does seem to be a bit of a problem for necalli. But he does have answers.

His st.hp, sweep, st.mp,cr.mp, and cr.mk can all win if timed and spaced correctly.

However it does look hard enough to do to give chun a tempo advantage in the matchup at close range neutral. Will have to play more necallis with this move in mind and see how they deal with it before I make up my mind on the matchup for now. Fmp is a move I rarely use cause it has no conversion properties outside ch into ex legs, and against much of the cast a simple cr.mk or sweep beats it clean.

1588

The big thing with her f.mp is that Necalli’s crouching moves actually put their limb hurtbox under its hitbox… but it’s hurtbox is under their hitboxes. And since Necalli’s cr.mp and cr.mk move his body so far forward you’re basically asking to be counterhit. Sweep can work but you can’t do it on reaction and he will get whiff punished. St.mk has the same issue of moving him forward which means you kind of have to rely more on st.mp which doesn’t convert well and will lose to her low pokes.

Basically Necalli’s big issue in footsies isn’t really that he’s got stubby attacks; he actually has really good range on a lot of his moves! It’s that they all move his body hurtbox way forward which means you run into lots of attacks and are much more open for whiff punishes. He also has really bad conversion options at the range where his st.mp is useful (as it doesn’t move his body forward) as stomps don’t reach and he needs charge for Slash. If you can keep him at this range and just poke he doesn’t have too many options. Of course, a single good st.hk Crush Counter can change that but you shouldn’t generally be in a position to worry about that if your footsies are on point.

One good thing I noticed Haitani starting to do on his Crush Counters was to try and get the TC to connect. It gives you advantage after a double dash and builds V Trigger while also converting at a range where you’d have to either take a raw Slash combo or an LK/EX Stomp ender. Really, Necalli’s TC is great against other characters with slower long ranged pokes as it lets you get a full conversion without needing charge. I use it to whiff punish moves like Zangief st.hp or whenever I have a good read on a st.mk poke. It’s just tough to use as you really swing your hurtbox forward.

1589

I believe Chun vs Necalli is 6-4 Chun’s favor due to Chun being arguably the best character in the game at neutral, highlighting one of Necalli’s major weaknesses. You can defensively bully Necalli at mid range to the point where he almost has to take risks with seismos or jump ins. cr.mk os hard lighting legs makes it scary for Necalli to even move forward. Necalli can keep it honest with cr.mp OS into disc’s guidance, but Chun can stuff that out with b+hp. Chun can also punish Necalli, albeit lightly, for not properly spacing st.hk. She can also low profile his DP.

Of course, Necalli hits like a truck, which helps keep him in the match, and the lack of neutral is far less of a problem when he’s in trigger. Chun also is a beast in trigger, so when she’s in that state to match his, it makes the situation a little less scary.

I have more experience with this match than any other in the game for what it’s worth.

1590

Hmmm… Things to think about definitely. How does chun low profile his dp? If it’s with cr.mp that’s a bust unless you get a perfect last frame meaty (which you shouldn’t be able to do consistent against wakeup/back wakeup/no wakeup) If it’s cr.mk then you have a point but that’s still minus on block and you lose pressure. A good tool, certainly. But not without faults if the necalli is smart.

Necallis anti neutral tools are pretty decent… His v skill is just that.

As far as chun having arguably the best neutral… I don’t even think that’s arguable. In my mind she’s flat out beaten by a few characters at neutral such as Nash, ryu, and cammy, and sim, even birdie is a problem at neutral.
Other characters that seem like they can hang at neutral against her are vega, fang, and Bison.

She has advantages on a lot of these characters once inside though because of her walkspeed, Iall pressure and the fact that these characters suffer from bad reversals/no reversals.

1591

after ex legs chun can fwd dash cr.mp

its safe and is good vs backroll too

1592

They’re neutral done meaty and cr.mp combos if done meaty on hit. It adds a whole extra level to the wakeup game against him.

The thing with Necalli’s V Skill is that it’s 56f total; you can’t use it in footsies unless you’re asking for a jump in or boot to the face. You can use it once or twice when they’re trying to get into footsie range but if they just block they can then proceed to walk at you. If it misses due to them either dashing, jumping, or you guessing they would dash when they didn’t, they’re in. It’s a somewhat useful tool if they want to stay outside of Slash range and chuck plasma but it doesn’t control space very well.

Basically I think Necalli has issues against characters who have strong neutral tools (other than Dhalsim and maaaaaaaybe Vega) and do great against characters who focus more on rushdown. In many ways he’s like a Grappler with worse midscreen oki but a real goddamn DP instead of this frame 3 armor shit.

1593

Just tested it in training mode and necalli gets a free punish if he backrolls because chun wiffs. You can mis time the meaty to hit the backroll, but then you are at a punishable disadvantage if he quick teched. So either way, you guess wrong and he punishes you.

So don’t guess wrong? It’s cool tech, but not great after exploration. Use it to beat up on necallis that don’t know how to use the record function.

The problem with this kind of “tech” is that the wakeup system really limits how well you can use this stuff.

As an example if I knock someone down with rashids l mixer… I get a completely ambiguous jumpin crossup opportunity. Problem? I have to guess not only the correct wakeup, but then have to guess correctly the mixup followup that will hit. It shouldn’t take a genius to figure out that if I run this mixup all day, assuming my opponent also has knowledge of the mixup (and they should if I’m doing it all day) the at best, with no reads against my opponent, the mixup has a 25% chance of hitting. That’s just bad odds for a followup.

The point is that ex legs isn’t a good ender. It requires meter for a 25% of guessing the resulting situation correctly. Better to SBK IMO. And you get a better ender in super once you save enough of it so that you can do hella crazy stuff like v trigger fhk combos into ca xx bazillion damage.

But if the necalli does do his dp and you go under… Then you get a great punish. So it has merit. I just don’t think it’s solid cause of the fact that necalli also gets a punish if you don’t call him out perfectly.

There are also many moves in the game that after you get a knockdown, will hit both quick wakeup timings… But these situations are all “balanced” afaik, by all being done with moves that are minus 2, or in chuns case since she CAN time her cr.mp to hit both timings, she’s going to be super minus on one of the timings no.matter.what.

I just ass canned a poor Laura that didn’t realize that everytime I blocked an elbow I get a FREE cr.lp as long as she doesn’t have super. She kept giving me free pressure and I kept converting into tick throws and instant leg frame traps. People seem to not have realized just how bad a situation minus 2 at point blank, is in this game.

In other news I just saw wolfkrone lose his soul to f champ.

At this point I think Laura is all bad bad bad. Poor character :frowning:

1594

Can you react in time to do a later meaty? I know I can with some faster buttons, don’t know Chun well enough.

But Laura’s issue is that she’s a vortex character; you either win big or go home. And unlike the SFIV vortexes, her’s isn’t safe. Which means you get the weaknesses of a shitty neutral but really have to ride that one knockdown to a win, as a wrong guess on your part pushes you out again. R.Mika has better shenanigans while Necalli has a better overall game outside of the midscreen vortex. The one big thing I think Laura has going for her is looping pressure via EX Fireball cancels to stay in at advantage. Her fireball just seems too weak to use as an approach outside of VT. If we start seeing her meter either used exclusively for EX Fireball up close or EX Elbow to go through shit I think she’ll do decently, as we have seen as some tournaments.

1595

@CoosCoos

What’s your fighter id? I wouldnt mind taking a look at your birdie v Chun games as I’m having lots of trouble in the matchup (that v trigger st.hp was a good call though, used it to punk this one birdie who’s entire neutra strategy is to do chains and armor all day) chains beat my kikoken, and armor beats my non v triggered pokes.

1596

Interesting. I’ve felt like Birdie beats Cammy but you have it as even.

Give me your insight from the other side, what are Cammy players doing to keep
matchup even and what do you have a hard time dealing with?

1597

Cr.mp is 10 frame startup and active for 9 frames and minus 8 on block so her theoretically best meaty with it is +1 which is amazing… But that’s best meaty. And it’s unlikely that anyone not world class could reactively mix the timings up with this slow a move

Back rise is exactly 5 frames slower than regular quick rise so assuming that Chun hits with best possible meaty against quick rise, she will be -3 or 4 against back rise… Which is punishable.

1598

Lower body means around his legs mostly. Moves that hit around his center will likely beat it while trying to go for something like a sweep or whatever will get beaten. Like if Ryu does a meaty sMP it should beat a LP SRK, a jump in is more likely to lose or trade, but if Ryu is trying to do an obvious crMK xx fireball it’ll lose.

With a crossup setup you can make HP DP whiff or catch him from behind, just like in SF4 but harder to do with SF5’s lack of HKDs. Unless Ken does a HP DP really late it’s possible to make him trade with your jump in during neutral, this is especially an issue for him if you have the ability to vary how low your attack hits with a move like Birdie’s jMK. Alternately a really big or well positioned attack with a lot of active frames can be good to make him more likely to block. If you do a jump in from decently far away you can make him less likely to even try a DP, much less a MP DP which doesn’t reach as far, because an empty jump could make the DP blockable by the time you land. A trade is a big deal for Ken’s DP because it is a multi hit attack instead of one big DP. You can easily end up making Ken’s DP trade for 20 damage vs your 40~100 damage jump in. Ken’s DP mostly has a low positioned hitbox for a lot of earlier frames. He doesn’t have a hitbox that even reaches even with his head until 7F and above his head on 8F. On wakeup it’s good, difficult to meaty, throw, or stand far enough back to make whiff, however just like every other DP if you read it and block or DO make it whiff you can get a 1/4th to 1/2 health punish depending on your character and resources.

Most of the ways to deal with his DP are the same as from SF4 but the crush counter makes the bigger punishes cheaper (in terms of meter cost) for every character while some characters in SF4 might struggle to get over 200 damage without spending any resources. In addition Ken can’t FADC in SF5 and his V-trigger cancel is much easier to react to than an EX FADC, thanks to the screen freeze. He also doesn’t have any variation options that you need to look for, you don’t have to change your punish and hesitate because he can’t choose to back dash, delay his dashes, or even try a risky focus attack to crumple your punish attempt. You always can react the same way, the same reversal special or same normal attack.

As mutton noted, HP is also going to trade with an attack setup to counterhit him, something that hits on the 2nd frame he wakes up, or something that is setup to be a true meaty, you’ll need a move with a good amount of active frames for this though, at least 3~4F. Just hit him with a heavy or mid and it’ll either be an even trade or bad for him.

That is my suggestions / opinions on your options at least. Mostly based on the mechanics but I think that they still apply to playing the game since they haven’t really change much since SF4.

1599

This may have already been covered but Mika is seriously giving me flashbacks to 3rd strike Makoto. When she has you in the corner, you’re left with some hard decisions. A couple of wrong guesses and the match is over. You know the grab is coming but if she catches you jumping you’re eating a nasty combo.

Like Makoto, I wouldn’t be surprised if she is hard to rank given that her matches are unpredictable.

1600

At this point mika seems to have the most powerful 50/50 in the game, and it loops back into itself on hit.