Street Fighter V Balance/Match Up Discussion - SHOW ME YOUR MATCH UPS

[Alkipot]

I think Sonicfox could’ve done better with a stronger character. He’d probably wreck shit with Birdie imo. Fang just seems to do little sister damage.

[Muttonman]

His footsies are really weak. Necalli has a bit of a deadzone where other characters would poke with their st.mk and he has trouble converting off whiffs without charge or VT. If someone can dance around st.hk range they can whiff punish it fairly easily, or if they can stay right within it to stuff most of his moves. Much of Haitani’s footsie game was just dash inside, hit a button to delayed cr.mp xx Slash to catch them putting something out. If they don’t put something out that it can catch he gets whiff punished though.

Now, Haitani’s an incredible player and years of Makoto have taught him exactly when to dash in but that’s mainly a strength of his helping to overcome the flaw of a character.

Other flaws; needs to blow meter to convert off of lights. Loses his chance at pressure after a Slash ender if it doesn’t corner them. Only 6’3" so his chances of converting his great dunking game into an NBA career are slim.

Ehhhh…I don’t really see him as having weak footsies. He just operates a bit differently. A huge part of footsies are getting into your ideal range and staying there, while also keeping your opponent there. So yes, that is a bit of a deadzone for him, but I don’t see that as a flaw. All characters have ranges that they are not that strong in. It’s a necessary aspect of the game. He doesn’t have a s.MK like Karin or Chun, but he’s not really the same type of character. His s.MP is actually not that bad in terms of range, either, and you can get some good mileage out of it. His s.HK is his main poking tool, and it’s up to you to utilize it properly, and make sure that you’re spaced well enough so you don’t get stuffed. The trade off he gets for conceding that specific space is that he has great frame advantage on block for many of his normal attacks (7!), as well as a variety of crush counters. Way I see it, Necalli either wants to be further back to safely give you shit with V. Skill, to be in s. HK range, or he wants to be inside. Mostly he wants to be inside, and can get in very easily with his high mobility, or by using stuff like c.MKxxMK stomp (If he hits with v. skill he’s in, too). Once he’s there, a lot of characters don’t have much of a way to deal with him. While Chun’s game plan is to play footsies practically the whole round, Necalli’s is to just force his opponent to the corner and then brutally dismantle them with his strong frame traps and resets. So yes, he does have a space that he doesn’t really do much in, but that’s very typical, and is hardly a flaw.

His light confirms are a bit lacking (he can do c.LK, s.LPxxLP DP without meter from the right distance, very close), I’ll give you that. Then again, light confirms aren’t all that great in this game anyhow.

Slash gives up pressure in exchange for insane corner carry. I don’t know if anyone else in the game can corner an opponent from as far away as Necalli can. Even if Necalli doesn’t corner the opponent with the attack, this tends to mean that he was almost cornered himself, and just gained the positional advantage.

Honestly, I feel people are too focused on figuring out tiers rather than appreciating the fact that this game is so well made and balanced. Would ANYBODY be shocked if Laura won a tournament? Oh wait…SHE DID! R.Mika? OH WAIT…SHE DID. BUT…ZANGIEF…OH WAIT! This game has a wonderful roster and everybody is scary.

You’re very right on this. I feel like this game is very much like Super Turbo where it really comes down to the match up and player knowledge/skill than tier. Unlike Super Turbo, however, they seem to have recognized that non-fireball characters struggle with fireballs very hard if they don’t have some sort of tool to get around them, so it feels even more true in this game. Zangief vs Ryu was horrible in ST, but now he has the tools he needs to execute his game plan. Takes some work, no doubt, but the tools are in the box.

Necalli’s st.mp is pretty great. But it loses flat out to a lot of low pokes and can’t go into anything without charge or CA at max range. And his st.hk has a host of problems due to how long it hangs out there while moving his hurtbox forward. It’s kind of like Gief’s st.hp; bait that and you can get a nice punish while he only gets a decent bit off it on counterhit. Necalli just has trouble staying in his favored range and can get bullied by a lot of the footsie characters. He’s got the tools to deal with this but they’re not that great.

Honestly, if you just made some minor tweaks like putting his TC on st.mp and letting it hit low profile attacks or had his EX Stomps move forward more I think he’d be an incredibly good character because he’d be able to play a really strong whiff punish game to make up for his mediocre footsies. But as is he just can’t really convert or bully until he gets in due to his st.mk pushing his hurtbox way forward, turning what should be a great whiff punisher into a poor one. Thus I think having one of the weakest footsie games of the entire cast next to the grapplers is a pretty big flaw. You get a great corner game to make up for it (not as good as R.Mika or Laura of course) but part of his design is “get them to the corner and win, fail and lose.”

The problem with Ryu is that he’s honest for a top tier. He’s good all around, but still has to outplay his opponent rather than letting his tools dominate a match up (see Cammy and Chun’s best match ups), which makes it really hard to differentiate between Ryu being good and a good Ryu player.

I don’t believe his damage is honest in any way shape or form. He hit hard in sf4, but was eventually nerfed damage wise. This incarnation hits even harder than his sf4 counterpart did though.

He isn’t the most damaging character in the game. But the only characters that easily out damage him have command grabs.

I think the idea with Ryu’s damage is that it’s fairly low if you don’t get a point blank or standing confirm.

.

Well it’s fairly low for every character at that point (standing confirm not withstanding)

And ryu still gets fhp or st.mp into obscene amounts of damage which are arguably safe ranged options to get damage.

Now by “ranged” I’m not talking og gat fullscreen range, I’m talking about safe confirmable range. Lots of characters don’t have these options at all. The most you are getting from chun at that range for that amount of safety on a confirm is by blowing st.hp on a guess Into v trigger cancel. Into super. So it’s not really a confirm since the v trigger has to be blown (unless the st.hp can be confirmed into v trigger… Something I should have a look at actually. But even still, v trigger cancels scale the followups to them just like yrc does in GGxrd.

In fact, a lot of this game takes after GG if you understand how GG works. But that’s going OT, sorry.

Point being that ryu doesn’t have to go through v trigger scaling a lot of times and that being able to cancel a 1 hit, 140 damage move super is well… Kinda ridiculous, at this point.

But yes, he does lack in certain combo areas such as against crouching opponents, or confirms from light attacks. But I don’t think those are as important to his game as others might. To me a confirm is a confirm. Whether it’s from light attacks or even easier from medium attacks.

Hell, even his medium medium xx fireball combo probably does around 150 damage. Which is comparable to what some other characters get for the same thing.

-edit

Also, if you are good ryu can totally do st.mp and then hitconform into fierce srk into super, which works on crouching opponents and does ridiculous man damage.

I think you mean RRC as a fellow GG player
I wouldn’t say that the game takes too much from Guilty though. It disturbed at when I saw that airthrows are actually better when the opponent is below you for instance!

But the big thing with Ryu is that he gets the damage at ranges where others might have trouble converting. Being able to do something like medium (blocked) medium medium is pretty huge, even if he does get less damage off his medium medium confirms at that range than most; I think maybe only Cammy and Karin can do the same with Karin requiring a CH (but gets mad damage)? But for something like a blocked jab -> medium medium Ryu seems to be on the low side of damage. That’s how they’re trying to balance him IMO

[k4polo]

My take away from FR is that Chun isn’t as far above the other characters as I thought. My tier list right now is

S Everyone except Laura, Fang, and Gief
A+ Laura, Fang
A Gief

I don’t think anyone is bad, and outside of Laura, Fang, Gief, you could argue everyone else as best character and I’d be inclined to listen.

I think the general gist of the post is that everyone is very close in the tiers so it doesn’t matter as much.
As least from early impressions.

Just focus on your characters and your matchups and you do well outside of Gief unless you are snakeEyes.

Eyes were wide open to Mika. She is decent actually. I saw a good number of them when I went to FR this year.

[Dime]

His footsies are really weak. Necalli has a bit of a deadzone where other characters would poke with their st.mk and he has trouble converting off whiffs without charge or VT. If someone can dance around st.hk range they can whiff punish it fairly easily, or if they can stay right within it to stuff most of his moves. Much of Haitani’s footsie game was just dash inside, hit a button to delayed cr.mp xx Slash to catch them putting something out. If they don’t put something out that it can catch he gets whiff punished though.

Now, Haitani’s an incredible player and years of Makoto have taught him exactly when to dash in but that’s mainly a strength of his helping to overcome the flaw of a character.

Other flaws; needs to blow meter to convert off of lights. Loses his chance at pressure after a Slash ender if it doesn’t corner them. Only 6’3" so his chances of converting his great dunking game into an NBA career are slim.

Ehhhh…I don’t really see him as having weak footsies. He just operates a bit differently. A huge part of footsies are getting into your ideal range and staying there, while also keeping your opponent there. So yes, that is a bit of a deadzone for him, but I don’t see that as a flaw. All characters have ranges that they are not that strong in. It’s a necessary aspect of the game. He doesn’t have a s.MK like Karin or Chun, but he’s not really the same type of character. His s.MP is actually not that bad in terms of range, either, and you can get some good mileage out of it. His s.HK is his main poking tool, and it’s up to you to utilize it properly, and make sure that you’re spaced well enough so you don’t get stuffed. The trade off he gets for conceding that specific space is that he has great frame advantage on block for many of his normal attacks (7!), as well as a variety of crush counters. Way I see it, Necalli either wants to be further back to safely give you shit with V. Skill, to be in s. HK range, or he wants to be inside. Mostly he wants to be inside, and can get in very easily with his high mobility, or by using stuff like c.MKxxMK stomp (If he hits with v. skill he’s in, too). Once he’s there, a lot of characters don’t have much of a way to deal with him. While Chun’s game plan is to play footsies practically the whole round, Necalli’s is to just force his opponent to the corner and then brutally dismantle them with his strong frame traps and resets. So yes, he does have a space that he doesn’t really do much in, but that’s very typical, and is hardly a flaw.

His light confirms are a bit lacking (he can do c.LK, s.LPxxLP DP without meter from the right distance, very close), I’ll give you that. Then again, light confirms aren’t all that great in this game anyhow.

Slash gives up pressure in exchange for insane corner carry. I don’t know if anyone else in the game can corner an opponent from as far away as Necalli can. Even if Necalli doesn’t corner the opponent with the attack, this tends to mean that he was almost cornered himself, and just gained the positional advantage.

Honestly, I feel people are too focused on figuring out tiers rather than appreciating the fact that this game is so well made and balanced. Would ANYBODY be shocked if Laura won a tournament? Oh wait…SHE DID! R.Mika? OH WAIT…SHE DID. BUT…ZANGIEF…OH WAIT! This game has a wonderful roster and everybody is scary.

You’re very right on this. I feel like this game is very much like Super Turbo where it really comes down to the match up and player knowledge/skill than tier. Unlike Super Turbo, however, they seem to have recognized that non-fireball characters struggle with fireballs very hard if they don’t have some sort of tool to get around them, so it feels even more true in this game. Zangief vs Ryu was horrible in ST, but now he has the tools he needs to execute his game plan. Takes some work, no doubt, but the tools are in the box.

Necalli’s st.mp is pretty great. But it loses flat out to a lot of low pokes and can’t go into anything without charge or CA at max range. And his st.hk has a host of problems due to how long it hangs out there while moving his hurtbox forward. It’s kind of like Gief’s st.hp; bait that and you can get a nice punish while he only gets a decent bit off it on counterhit. Necalli just has trouble staying in his favored range and can get bullied by a lot of the footsie characters. He’s got the tools to deal with this but they’re not that great.

Honestly, if you just made some minor tweaks like putting his TC on st.mp and letting it hit low profile attacks or had his EX Stomps move forward more I think he’d be an incredibly good character because he’d be able to play a really strong whiff punish game to make up for his mediocre footsies. But as is he just can’t really convert or bully until he gets in due to his st.mk pushing his hurtbox way forward, turning what should be a great whiff punisher into a poor one. Thus I think having one of the weakest footsie games of the entire cast next to the grapplers is a pretty big flaw. You get a great corner game to make up for it (not as good as R.Mika or Laura of course) but part of his design is “get them to the corner and win, fail and lose.”

The problem with Ryu is that he’s honest for a top tier. He’s good all around, but still has to outplay his opponent rather than letting his tools dominate a match up (see Cammy and Chun’s best match ups), which makes it really hard to differentiate between Ryu being good and a good Ryu player.

I don’t believe his damage is honest in any way shape or form. He hit hard in sf4, but was eventually nerfed damage wise. This incarnation hits even harder than his sf4 counterpart did though.

He isn’t the most damaging character in the game. But the only characters that easily out damage him have command grabs.

I think the idea with Ryu’s damage is that it’s fairly low if you don’t get a point blank or standing confirm.

.

Well it’s fairly low for every character at that point (standing confirm not withstanding)

And ryu still gets fhp or st.mp into obscene amounts of damage which are arguably safe ranged options to get damage.

Now by “ranged” I’m not talking og gat fullscreen range, I’m talking about safe confirmable range. Lots of characters don’t have these options at all. The most you are getting from chun at that range for that amount of safety on a confirm is by blowing st.hp on a guess Into v trigger cancel. Into super. So it’s not really a confirm since the v trigger has to be blown (unless the st.hp can be confirmed into v trigger… Something I should have a look at actually. But even still, v trigger cancels scale the followups to them just like yrc does in GGxrd.

In fact, a lot of this game takes after GG if you understand how GG works. But that’s going OT, sorry.

Point being that ryu doesn’t have to go through v trigger scaling a lot of times and that being able to cancel a 1 hit, 140 damage move super is well… Kinda ridiculous, at this point.

But yes, he does lack in certain combo areas such as against crouching opponents, or confirms from light attacks. But I don’t think those are as important to his game as others might. To me a confirm is a confirm. Whether it’s from light attacks or even easier from medium attacks.

Hell, even his medium medium xx fireball combo probably does around 150 damage. Which is comparable to what some other characters get for the same thing.

-edit

Also, if you are good ryu can totally do st.mp and then hitconform into fierce srk into super, which works on crouching opponents and does ridiculous man damage.

I think you mean RRC as a fellow GG player

nope, I put yrc in there as bait to see if you were going to go pedantic on me

Notice I said “scales followups” yrc scales meter gain immediately afterwards, even done at neutral. This is a way to balance its obvious strength and option selects/screen checks it gives.

Of course I know about y p and r RC.

Moving on, actual,y there are alot of similarities between GG and sf5… Some of the more obvious things:

Fewer proximity normals. Yes GG has close and far slash… But it lacks far and close everything else iirc (unless some character specific stuff is around that I don’t know about)

In sf5 the st.mk very much resembles GG far slash as most characrers medium range poke. Yes it isn’t cancelable in sf5 but it is still a homogenous (this is your high priority poke tool)

It has v trigger cancels very similar to Rrc, v trigger pops very similar to Yrc.

It has gap/non gap based offense, everything is turn based with the exception of burning meter for an extra turn. Or using a high startup move for an extra turn.

And I’m sure there are more I’m forgetting, but yeah, one of the reasons why people are liking the system so much is because capcom has basically taken lots of GG mechanics, gotten one of thr best GG players of all time to be there battle planner, and made:

Guilty Gear: streetfighter version

And not told anyone.

Even backdashing could be considered to harken back to GG since backdashes are now fully CH state (harkens back to neg pen to punish backdash running away to much)

Feel free to disagree. I’m not perfectly right about all of this, but yeah, it’s pretty obvious to me that they really looked to GG at least for lots of inspiration (as GG has certainly done to them, as well)

[Muttonman]

His footsies are really weak. Necalli has a bit of a deadzone where other characters would poke with their st.mk and he has trouble converting off whiffs without charge or VT. If someone can dance around st.hk range they can whiff punish it fairly easily, or if they can stay right within it to stuff most of his moves. Much of Haitani’s footsie game was just dash inside, hit a button to delayed cr.mp xx Slash to catch them putting something out. If they don’t put something out that it can catch he gets whiff punished though.

Now, Haitani’s an incredible player and years of Makoto have taught him exactly when to dash in but that’s mainly a strength of his helping to overcome the flaw of a character.

Other flaws; needs to blow meter to convert off of lights. Loses his chance at pressure after a Slash ender if it doesn’t corner them. Only 6’3" so his chances of converting his great dunking game into an NBA career are slim.

Ehhhh…I don’t really see him as having weak footsies. He just operates a bit differently. A huge part of footsies are getting into your ideal range and staying there, while also keeping your opponent there. So yes, that is a bit of a deadzone for him, but I don’t see that as a flaw. All characters have ranges that they are not that strong in. It’s a necessary aspect of the game. He doesn’t have a s.MK like Karin or Chun, but he’s not really the same type of character. His s.MP is actually not that bad in terms of range, either, and you can get some good mileage out of it. His s.HK is his main poking tool, and it’s up to you to utilize it properly, and make sure that you’re spaced well enough so you don’t get stuffed. The trade off he gets for conceding that specific space is that he has great frame advantage on block for many of his normal attacks (7!), as well as a variety of crush counters. Way I see it, Necalli either wants to be further back to safely give you shit with V. Skill, to be in s. HK range, or he wants to be inside. Mostly he wants to be inside, and can get in very easily with his high mobility, or by using stuff like c.MKxxMK stomp (If he hits with v. skill he’s in, too). Once he’s there, a lot of characters don’t have much of a way to deal with him. While Chun’s game plan is to play footsies practically the whole round, Necalli’s is to just force his opponent to the corner and then brutally dismantle them with his strong frame traps and resets. So yes, he does have a space that he doesn’t really do much in, but that’s very typical, and is hardly a flaw.

His light confirms are a bit lacking (he can do c.LK, s.LPxxLP DP without meter from the right distance, very close), I’ll give you that. Then again, light confirms aren’t all that great in this game anyhow.

Slash gives up pressure in exchange for insane corner carry. I don’t know if anyone else in the game can corner an opponent from as far away as Necalli can. Even if Necalli doesn’t corner the opponent with the attack, this tends to mean that he was almost cornered himself, and just gained the positional advantage.

Honestly, I feel people are too focused on figuring out tiers rather than appreciating the fact that this game is so well made and balanced. Would ANYBODY be shocked if Laura won a tournament? Oh wait…SHE DID! R.Mika? OH WAIT…SHE DID. BUT…ZANGIEF…OH WAIT! This game has a wonderful roster and everybody is scary.

You’re very right on this. I feel like this game is very much like Super Turbo where it really comes down to the match up and player knowledge/skill than tier. Unlike Super Turbo, however, they seem to have recognized that non-fireball characters struggle with fireballs very hard if they don’t have some sort of tool to get around them, so it feels even more true in this game. Zangief vs Ryu was horrible in ST, but now he has the tools he needs to execute his game plan. Takes some work, no doubt, but the tools are in the box.

Necalli’s st.mp is pretty great. But it loses flat out to a lot of low pokes and can’t go into anything without charge or CA at max range. And his st.hk has a host of problems due to how long it hangs out there while moving his hurtbox forward. It’s kind of like Gief’s st.hp; bait that and you can get a nice punish while he only gets a decent bit off it on counterhit. Necalli just has trouble staying in his favored range and can get bullied by a lot of the footsie characters. He’s got the tools to deal with this but they’re not that great.

Honestly, if you just made some minor tweaks like putting his TC on st.mp and letting it hit low profile attacks or had his EX Stomps move forward more I think he’d be an incredibly good character because he’d be able to play a really strong whiff punish game to make up for his mediocre footsies. But as is he just can’t really convert or bully until he gets in due to his st.mk pushing his hurtbox way forward, turning what should be a great whiff punisher into a poor one. Thus I think having one of the weakest footsie games of the entire cast next to the grapplers is a pretty big flaw. You get a great corner game to make up for it (not as good as R.Mika or Laura of course) but part of his design is “get them to the corner and win, fail and lose.”

The problem with Ryu is that he’s honest for a top tier. He’s good all around, but still has to outplay his opponent rather than letting his tools dominate a match up (see Cammy and Chun’s best match ups), which makes it really hard to differentiate between Ryu being good and a good Ryu player.

I don’t believe his damage is honest in any way shape or form. He hit hard in sf4, but was eventually nerfed damage wise. This incarnation hits even harder than his sf4 counterpart did though.

He isn’t the most damaging character in the game. But the only characters that easily out damage him have command grabs.

I think the idea with Ryu’s damage is that it’s fairly low if you don’t get a point blank or standing confirm.

.

Well it’s fairly low for every character at that point (standing confirm not withstanding)

And ryu still gets fhp or st.mp into obscene amounts of damage which are arguably safe ranged options to get damage.

Now by “ranged” I’m not talking og gat fullscreen range, I’m talking about safe confirmable range. Lots of characters don’t have these options at all. The most you are getting from chun at that range for that amount of safety on a confirm is by blowing st.hp on a guess Into v trigger cancel. Into super. So it’s not really a confirm since the v trigger has to be blown (unless the st.hp can be confirmed into v trigger… Something I should have a look at actually. But even still, v trigger cancels scale the followups to them just like yrc does in GGxrd.

In fact, a lot of this game takes after GG if you understand how GG works. But that’s going OT, sorry.

Point being that ryu doesn’t have to go through v trigger scaling a lot of times and that being able to cancel a 1 hit, 140 damage move super is well… Kinda ridiculous, at this point.

But yes, he does lack in certain combo areas such as against crouching opponents, or confirms from light attacks. But I don’t think those are as important to his game as others might. To me a confirm is a confirm. Whether it’s from light attacks or even easier from medium attacks.

Hell, even his medium medium xx fireball combo probably does around 150 damage. Which is comparable to what some other characters get for the same thing.

-edit

Also, if you are good ryu can totally do st.mp and then hitconform into fierce srk into super, which works on crouching opponents and does ridiculous man damage.

I think you mean RRC as a fellow GG player

nope, I put yrc in there as bait to see if you were going to go pedantic on me

Notice I said “scales followups” yrc scales meter gain immediately afterwards, even done at neutral. This is a way to balance its obvious strength and option selects/screen checks it gives.

Of course I know about y p and r RC.

Moving on, actual,y there are alot of similarities between GG and sf5… Some of the more obvious things:

Fewer proximity normals. Yes GG has close and far slash… But it lacks far and close everything else iirc (unless some character specific stuff is around that I don’t know about)

In sf5 the st.mk very much resembles GG far slash as most characrers medium range poke. Yes it isn’t cancelable in sf5 but it is still a homogenous (this is your high priority poke tool)

It has v trigger cancels very similar to Rrc, v trigger pops very similar to Yrc.

It has gap/non gap based offense, everything is turn based with the exception of burning meter for an extra turn. Or using a high startup move for an extra turn.

And I’m sure there are more I’m forgetting, but yeah, one of the reasons why people are liking the system so much is because capcom has basically taken lots of GG mechanics, gotten one of thr best GG players of all time to be there battle planner, and made:

Guilty Gear: streetfighter version

And not told anyone.

Even backdashing could be considered to harken back to GG since backdashes are now fully CH state (harkens back to neg pen to punish backdash running away to much)

Feel free to disagree. I’m not perfectly right about all of this, but yeah, it’s pretty obvious to me that they really looked to GG at least for lots of inspiration (as GG has certainly done to them, as well)

I don’t think many of those are really GGish though. VT is straight out of KI with Instinct mode. Having a far poke is kind of a fighting game thing, not unique to GG at all. Backdashes only having throw invul is much closer to KoF than anything else. The only thing that’s at all Guilty like in SFV are crush counters which act like staggers or ground bounces in GG.

[DevilJin_01]

Yeah V Trigger is pretty much ripped from KI except they did a nice job of adding variety to it by giving some characters one shot Triggers, ones that last forever, ones that last a certain period of time and some that require more meter to start than others. Lot more variety in how you build meter for them and the types of them. In KI while what they do is interesting they pretty much boil down to “your character gets these power ups for 15 seconds when they get beat up enough”. In SFV it’s much more varied and nuanced. Plus there are ways to build V Gauge by winning and doing successful things and it’s not just purely for the comeback.

The V Gauge is also set up so you can spend it on V Reversals to relieve pressure or stun which gives a nice meta game where you have to decide to temporarily throw away your comeback to not die sooner.

[d3v]

To the OP @d3v :

The spreadsheet on the first page is missing F.A.N.G. Is it already known?

It’s fixed now for both the sheet and the template.

[ChaudBlaze]

I didn’t realize birdie can replenish his ridiculously slow draining vtrigger while in v trigger.

[Fr0st_Blade]

It drains faster if he does special moves.

[yajirobe]

FR top 50 Character breakdown

Ryu: 9
Chun-Li: 8
Nash: 6
Karin:6
Necalli: 5
Cammy: 5
R.Mika: 4
Vega: 4
Ken: 4
F.A.N.G: 3
Zangief: 3
Rashid: 2
Dhalsim: 2
Birdie: 2
Laura: 2
M. Bison:1

[Slizzard]

Mika vs…

Ryu: 5.5/4.5 (Ryu advantage)
Ken: 5/5
Gief 4.5/5.5
Dhalsim: 6.5/3.5
Nash: 6/4
Chun: 6/4
Bison: 5/5
Karin: 5.5/4.5
Mika: 5/5
Laura: 5.5/4.5
Fang: 5/5
Cammy 6/4
Rashid 5/5
Nash 6/4
Birdie 5.5/4.5
Vega 5/5

I know that’s rough for Mika but that’s just my opinion.

[Dime]

And mika took out all the top chuns…

[Hol_Horse]

Yeah V Trigger is pretty much ripped from KI

I wouldn’t give KI credit for this kind of mechanic since Capcom already had a character-specific power up systems in X-Men:COTA and Vampire Saviour

[DevilJin_01]

Yeah V Trigger is pretty much ripped from KI

I wouldn’t give KI credit for this kind of mechanic since Capcom already had a character-specific power up systems in X-Men:COTA and Vampire Saviour

I’ve heard some people say this, but the way V Trigger works (activation with XF/GG style roman cancel that primarily builds as you get hit) is very much taken from KI specifically. Some people also relate it to BB’s Overdrives which gives you a newer game to relate it to, but it’s still overall most directly ripped from the entire concept that was in KI.

[Dime]

What came out first? Mvc3 or ki? I think mvc3.

In mvc3 you get XF which some people don’t know, as a power up is character specific. Hulk as an example though he gains damage he gains NO SPEED UP during XF.

Moving on… It’s really grasping at straws who made what. Tekken has rage, art of fighting had rage as well. Everyone has done the “character power up by getting beaten up” thing already. Just cause some resemble others doesn’t mean a whole lot when they are all borrowing off each other here and there.

Ki certainly wasn’t the first game to introduce power ups via getting that ass beat. They may have been the first to really make it a wide mechanic to their game… But I mean you could take these kinds of things and apply them to any fighting game.

When’s the first fighting game going to use critical hits? Whens the first fighting game to use moves that can inflict slow or poison like in RTS games?

Well in mvc3 they have 2 slows and in sf5 they have poison (poison is in lots of obscure fighting games)

When’s the first fighting game to really get behind these kinds of mechanics and make them system wide?

At the end of the day it’s a who cares kind of thing, but when the FIRST fighting game comes out with critical hits… People will say it’s the original. Not looking at the fact that it’s been in RTS forever. So yeah who did what first means not a whole lot. The point is more about where companies are getting inspiration from. In my mind, especially because the capcom battle planner is literally the second best GG player in the world right now, sf5 takes a lot of things from GG.

Yes, those huge crush counters very much resemble fatal counters in GG as yet another in the long list of examples.

And yes it’s quite possible to take inspiration from one game and transplant it to another and have it look and feel totally different.

An example:

Anyone who knows who squigly is? Well she takes “inspiration” from Johnny for her design. Feels nothing like Johnny though.

Robo fortune? Takes inspiration from GG in general.

Parasouls silent scope super? It’s the SG version of storms hail super…

Etc etc etc.

It’s quite possible to take inspiration from one things and make something very different.

Here’s the wizard of oz over the rainbow remake:

Sounds nothing like the original despite having the same lyrics etc etc etc

[Neclord]

How good/strong a character looks depends a lot on the player who picks the character.

For example:

Infiltration once picked Hakan in EVO finals against PR Rog and won.
He also picked Chun a few times and outplayed most of his opponents.

This dude can make any character look top tier.

As for the other characters at FR:
The only Zangief who got pretty far was Snake Eyes. Only he knew how to play him.
And only Wolfkrone showed a little bit of what Laura can do. All the other players were pretty unexperienced with her.

If none of the “really good” players pick the character, then the character might look low tier forever. Think about Gen in SF4. People thought he was low tier (mid tier at best) until Xian picked him. Same happened with Dudley and Smug.

It also depends on the work you have to do with the character. I believe that the reason we saw a lot of Cammy and will see a lot of Cammy at NCR is that she is easy to pick up and pretty strong at the same time. So no big effort. And people are lazy. That’s also what Juicebox said on his stream yesterday. “Why was Tokido the only player who knew how to deal with Fang (Sonic Fox)? Because he spend the time in practice mode and figured out how to deal with this character.”

[Muttonman]

What came out first? Mvc3 or ki? I think mvc3.

In mvc3 you get XF which some people don’t know, as a power up is character specific. Hulk as an example though he gains damage he gains NO SPEED UP during XF.

Moving on… It’s really grasping at straws who made what. Tekken has rage, art of fighting had rage as well. Everyone has done the “character power up by getting beaten up” thing already. Just cause some resemble others doesn’t mean a whole lot when they are all borrowing off each other here and there.

Ki certainly wasn’t the first game to introduce power ups via getting that ass beat. They may have been the first to really make it a wide mechanic to their game… But I mean you could take these kinds of things and apply them to any fighting game.

When’s the first fighting game going to use critical hits? Whens the first fighting game to use moves that can inflict slow or poison like in RTS games?

Well in mvc3 they have 2 slows and in sf5 they have poison (poison is in lots of obscure fighting games)

When’s the first fighting game to really get behind these kinds of mechanics and make them system wide?

At the end of the day it’s a who cares kind of thing, but when the FIRST fighting game comes out with critical hits… People will say it’s the original. Not looking at the fact that it’s been in RTS forever. So yeah who did what first means not a whole lot. The point is more about where companies are getting inspiration from. In my mind, especially because the capcom battle planner is literally the second best GG player in the world right now, sf5 takes a lot of things from GG.

Yes, those huge crush counters very much resemble fatal counters in GG as yet another in the long list of examples.

And yes it’s quite possible to take inspiration from one game and transplant it to another and have it look and feel totally different.

An example:

Anyone who knows who squigly is? Well she takes “inspiration” from Johnny for her design. Feels nothing like Johnny though.

Robo fortune? Takes inspiration from GG in general.

Parasouls silent scope super? It’s the SG version of storms hail super…

Etc etc etc.

It’s quite possible to take inspiration from one things and make something very different.

Here’s the wizard of oz over the rainbow remake:

Sounds nothing like the original despite having the same lyrics etc etc etc

https://vimeo.com/8578344

Fatal Counters aren’t even a GG thing; Ground bounces and staggers are, but the whole Fatal Counter moves and Fatal Counter on counterhit comes from BB and P4A.

SFV really has no more in common with GG that it does a host of other games.

How good/strong a character looks depends a lot on the player who picks the character.

For example:

Infiltration once picked Hakan in EVO finals against PR Rog and won.
He also picked Chun a few times and outplayed most of his opponents.

This dude can make any character look top tier.

As for the other characters at FR:
The only Zangief who got pretty far was Snake Eyes. Only he knew how to play him.
And only Wolfkrone showed a little bit of what Laura can do. All the other players were pretty unexperienced with her.

If none of the “really good” players pick the character, then the character might look low tier forever. Think about Gen in SF4. People thought he was low tier (mid tier at best) until Xian picked him. Same happened with Dudley and Smug.

It also depends on the work you have to do with the character. I believe that the reason we saw a lot of Cammy and will see a lot of Cammy at NCR is that she is easy to pick up and pretty strong at the same time. So no big effort. And people are lazy. That’s also what Juicebox said on his stream yesterday. “Why was Tokido the only player who knew how to deal with Fang (Sonic Fox)? Because he spend the time in practice mode and figured out how to deal with this character.”

Watch Infilitration just main the Random Select next tournament and win it all. You’ll have people calling it top tier then.

[FengShuiEnergy]

So…take out random select? That would honestly have me laughing. Either that or they go and ban infiltration. Oh man…salt is too nice of a word for that.

[DevilJin_01]

Characters like Gief and Laura are character specialist characters where the people who specifically main them will get the most out of them. Their optimal play style isn’t completely centered around walking around and hitting buttons like some of the more fundamental characters so you won’t have as many people fairweather picking them up.

I think it’s safe to say that Laura will never reach top tier in this game though. With a game focusing heavily on how you perform in the neutral, there’s a place for Laura in tournaments, just not a character that is going to solely run through Evo or Capcom Cup Finals in December and get 1st.

[FengShuiEnergy]

We need guest characters A S A P then.