Street Fighter V Balance/Match Up Discussion - SHOW ME YOUR MATCH UPS

[itzpookiie]

The mk SBK combo becomes easier over time, it’s just something that your hands have to get used to, inputting st.mp~down, then hitting the late cancel feels like 2 frame timing, whereas hitting the late cancel on lk SBK feels like 6 frame window.

It’s hard to argue chun as not s tier… Simply because of iall, and tbqh foolish to do so as long as she has that move… However, that move is pretty much the only reason why some could conceivably call her unequivocally the best.

Take the move away and chun is top 5 and arguable about her position with Nash sim and Bison currently being obviously better.

But… That isn’t the reality of the game. The reality of the game is she has IALL and must be tiered accordingly.
I personally would love her to have them completely taken away so I can get back a decent throw range and play a more fundamental chun rather than needing to use stupid ass IALL in order to get anything done upclose with her.

I still don’t get the calls for Bison being top 5. What does he do to open up characters? I’ve seen a swap to using more Devil’s Reverse but you can beat that super easily, just walk back so the Headstomp would whiff then jab to catch the DR

his 5 character space grab
and continuous white life gain

[Necrotrophic]

I like footsies. I just want footsies that hurt or lead to really strong pressure.

Chuns footsies are just pokes that setup more pokes, iall often goes over a lot and you can often just throw it out.

This is why I enjoy Cammy, because her footsies can lead to a lot of pressure. Yang in sf4 was like that too.

I mained chun in st, alpha and 4. But I just think sfv chun is too boring to play. Nothing feels satisfying.

I mean she can setup good pressure via footsies but I dunno, like I said something just doesn’t jive with me

[DevilJin_01]

Those v trigger combos are pretty satisfying. S.mp, c.mk sbk is always fun too. C.mk ex legs is always good for thay panic satisfaction.

She gets more satisfying with meter also. S.hp super cancel feels straight outta 3S

She also gets a lot from her counter hits. F+hk and b+hp open up options when landed on counter hit.

[Necrotrophic]

S.hp super cancel feels straight outta 3S

This might be the problem.

I positively hate 3s chun for the same reasons. 3s is the one game where I avoid playing chun as much as I can.

Cammy better fits the “hold forward and press buttons” mentality that defined early chun so I guess thats why I have a lot of fun with her.

[Dime]

I like footsies. I just want footsies that hurt or lead to really strong pressure.

Chuns footsies are just pokes that setup more pokes, iall often goes over a lot and you can often just throw it out.

This is why I enjoy Cammy, because her footsies can lead to a lot of pressure. Yang in sf4 was like that too.

I mained chun in st, alpha and 4. But I just think sfv chun is too boring to play. Nothing feels satisfying.

I mean she can setup good pressure via footsies but I dunno, like I said something just doesn’t jive with me

Naw, traditional chuns pokes setup throws, and the throws setup pokes. I find it incredibly fun. THIS chun however uses pokes to setup dashes, dashes to setup throws and throws to setup IALL and IALL to setup throws/pokes.

I just wish that she could lose IALL and get back her nice throw range she’s always had (ST and and Kara throw in 3S) in ST chun was so fast and her throw range so good that she could CONSTANTLY threaten walk in throw, and because of that she could constantly just do walk up cr.mk over and over again to punish people for trying to keep her out. Then once the cr.mk had been established she could walk in throw again.

http://youtu.be/3GXv-qaY52Y

Walk up throw happens twice at the beginning of the 3rd round of second video… And this is the absolute highest level of play… And she still can do walk up throw.

http://youtu.be/BVEa97xCUQw

[DevilJin_01]

I guess that makes sense. Cammy has a button or 2 she can hold forward with and is plus. All of the stuff you can hold forward with using Chun is neg neg 2 to 3 or 0 at best and usually doesn’t combo without counter hit. Which I guess leads to her being more reactive until she gets v trigger.

If you watch Alioune he usually just goes the fuck in with iall. Its just when people get better at AAing it im sure he’ll be more honest with it. Either way she does have a lot of cute stuff once you get in.

[Muttonman]

The mk SBK combo becomes easier over time, it’s just something that your hands have to get used to, inputting st.mp~down, then hitting the late cancel feels like 2 frame timing, whereas hitting the late cancel on lk SBK feels like 6 frame window.

It’s hard to argue chun as not s tier… Simply because of iall, and tbqh foolish to do so as long as she has that move… However, that move is pretty much the only reason why some could conceivably call her unequivocally the best.

Take the move away and chun is top 5 and arguable about her position with Nash sim and Bison currently being obviously better.

But… That isn’t the reality of the game. The reality of the game is she has IALL and must be tiered accordingly.
I personally would love her to have them completely taken away so I can get back a decent throw range and play a more fundamental chun rather than needing to use stupid ass IALL in order to get anything done upclose with her.

I still don’t get the calls for Bison being top 5. What does he do to open up characters? I’ve seen a swap to using more Devil’s Reverse but you can beat that super easily, just walk back so the Headstomp would whiff then jab to catch the DR

his 5 character space grab
and continuous white life gain

He can’t even do a frame advantaged tick off a light I believe. His walkspeed is so bad that even with the giant range on his normal throw I have zero fear of it

[ES_Curse]

Isn’t Birdie a really bad match-up for Cammy or something? Bananna/Can prevents her from moving on the ground, and his amazeballs anti airs shut her down there too. He out damages her, and can compete with her walkspeed in V-Trigger.

Part of the reason this game feels so fair is EVERYONE gets opened up like a tin can. The few invincible reversals in SFV come with a CC punish window, making them super risky to do and worth baiting just for the punish combo. Everyone outside of Necalli, Ryu, and Ken is bad on wake up (FANG and Dhalsim are really bad), but even those 3 are just okay, with Ken having an edge because of VT cancels. The few really good V-Reversals are given to characters who want their V-Trigger a lot (Vega outside the corner, Necalli, Dhalsim), so even there it isn’t an easy choice.

[Mesenkomaha]

This thread is like a Chun Li circle jerk.

[itzpookiie]

The mk SBK combo becomes easier over time, it’s just something that your hands have to get used to, inputting st.mp~down, then hitting the late cancel feels like 2 frame timing, whereas hitting the late cancel on lk SBK feels like 6 frame window.

It’s hard to argue chun as not s tier… Simply because of iall, and tbqh foolish to do so as long as she has that move… However, that move is pretty much the only reason why some could conceivably call her unequivocally the best.

Take the move away and chun is top 5 and arguable about her position with Nash sim and Bison currently being obviously better.

But… That isn’t the reality of the game. The reality of the game is she has IALL and must be tiered accordingly.
I personally would love her to have them completely taken away so I can get back a decent throw range and play a more fundamental chun rather than needing to use stupid ass IALL in order to get anything done upclose with her.

I still don’t get the calls for Bison being top 5. What does he do to open up characters? I’ve seen a swap to using more Devil’s Reverse but you can beat that super easily, just walk back so the Headstomp would whiff then jab to catch the DR

his 5 character space grab
and continuous white life gain

He can’t even do a frame advantaged tick off a light I believe. His walkspeed is so bad that even with the giant range on his normal throw I have zero fear of it

that’s true
I don’t know
constant pressure I guess?
his v reversal is what gets me a lot as laura

[Dime]

The mk SBK combo becomes easier over time, it’s just something that your hands have to get used to, inputting st.mp~down, then hitting the late cancel feels like 2 frame timing, whereas hitting the late cancel on lk SBK feels like 6 frame window.

It’s hard to argue chun as not s tier… Simply because of iall, and tbqh foolish to do so as long as she has that move… However, that move is pretty much the only reason why some could conceivably call her unequivocally the best.

Take the move away and chun is top 5 and arguable about her position with Nash sim and Bison currently being obviously better.

But… That isn’t the reality of the game. The reality of the game is she has IALL and must be tiered accordingly.
I personally would love her to have them completely taken away so I can get back a decent throw range and play a more fundamental chun rather than needing to use stupid ass IALL in order to get anything done upclose with her.

I still don’t get the calls for Bison being top 5. What does he do to open up characters? I’ve seen a swap to using more Devil’s Reverse but you can beat that super easily, just walk back so the Headstomp would whiff then jab to catch the DR

It’s not always about opening up people. And even when it is, it isn’t always about opening them up via throws or left rights or high lows. Sometimes it’s about using fireballs to get them to jump so you can AA them, other times it’s about pressure forcing them to commit to jumps or button presses to get out of said pressure.

And let’s not forget that Bison has cr.hp.

I’ve seen bisons using instand DR and that seemed pretty plus… Not as good as IALL I would imagine, but a reasonable facsimile for a character like him.

But yeah it ain’t all about throw/frame trap… He isn’t chun.

[Saturius]

This thread is like a Chun Li circle jerk.

I know. And I like having that mess all over me. IALL is the only thing that finally made me like this version of Chun. I needed a good pressure tool and Capcom was finally like, well here bitch. Love it. I hope it’ll be awhile before they nerf it. I am fradulent as fuck and need my broken characters so these assholes can at least think I know what the hell I’m doing.

[drskull]

ffs. stop underselling.

[Hawkingbird]

Isn’t Birdie a really bad match-up for Cammy or something? Bananna/Can prevents her from moving on the ground, and his amazeballs anti airs shut her down there too. He out damages her, and can compete with her walkspeed in V-Trigger.
.

I agree with this. Banana fucks Cammy up. She can’t use Spin Knuckle over spinal Arrow to get past it. I like using it as shield against her as Birdie’s buttons are more oppressive than hers. S.hp and s.mk dominate midrange, use the armor on f.HP to beat her buttons and his slide when done on Max range. To Cammy’s credit, Birdie is the one match I believe her s.HK is useful. I got punished hard with that move whenever I fucked up with fierce or whiff anything.

[Necrotrophic]

Bison is really safe on a lot of normals and specials. His throw game isn’t super good but he might be a character who will be about white damage as time goes on

[Muttonman]

The mk SBK combo becomes easier over time, it’s just something that your hands have to get used to, inputting st.mp~down, then hitting the late cancel feels like 2 frame timing, whereas hitting the late cancel on lk SBK feels like 6 frame window.

It’s hard to argue chun as not s tier… Simply because of iall, and tbqh foolish to do so as long as she has that move… However, that move is pretty much the only reason why some could conceivably call her unequivocally the best.

Take the move away and chun is top 5 and arguable about her position with Nash sim and Bison currently being obviously better.

But… That isn’t the reality of the game. The reality of the game is she has IALL and must be tiered accordingly.
I personally would love her to have them completely taken away so I can get back a decent throw range and play a more fundamental chun rather than needing to use stupid ass IALL in order to get anything done upclose with her.

I still don’t get the calls for Bison being top 5. What does he do to open up characters? I’ve seen a swap to using more Devil’s Reverse but you can beat that super easily, just walk back so the Headstomp would whiff then jab to catch the DR

It’s not always about opening up people. And even when it is, it isn’t always about opening them up via throws or left rights or high lows. Sometimes it’s about using fireballs to get them to jump so you can AA them, other times it’s about pressure forcing them to commit to jumps or button presses to get out of said pressure.

And let’s not forget that Bison has cr.hp.

I’ve seen bisons using instand DR and that seemed pretty plus… Not as good as IALL I would imagine, but a reasonable facsimile for a character like him.

But yeah it ain’t all about throw/frame trap… He isn’t chun.

He can’t open people up. He can’t really bully in neutral because his walkspeed is non-existent. If he wants to do an instant DR which doesn’t give the opponent enough time to boil some water for tea and come back he has to spend meter. So how does he force his opponent to make a mistake and get hit?

[Dime]

The mk SBK combo becomes easier over time, it’s just something that your hands have to get used to, inputting st.mp~down, then hitting the late cancel feels like 2 frame timing, whereas hitting the late cancel on lk SBK feels like 6 frame window.

It’s hard to argue chun as not s tier… Simply because of iall, and tbqh foolish to do so as long as she has that move… However, that move is pretty much the only reason why some could conceivably call her unequivocally the best.

Take the move away and chun is top 5 and arguable about her position with Nash sim and Bison currently being obviously better.

But… That isn’t the reality of the game. The reality of the game is she has IALL and must be tiered accordingly.
I personally would love her to have them completely taken away so I can get back a decent throw range and play a more fundamental chun rather than needing to use stupid ass IALL in order to get anything done upclose with her.

I still don’t get the calls for Bison being top 5. What does he do to open up characters? I’ve seen a swap to using more Devil’s Reverse but you can beat that super easily, just walk back so the Headstomp would whiff then jab to catch the DR

It’s not always about opening up people. And even when it is, it isn’t always about opening them up via throws or left rights or high lows. Sometimes it’s about using fireballs to get them to jump so you can AA them, other times it’s about pressure forcing them to commit to jumps or button presses to get out of said pressure.

And let’s not forget that Bison has cr.hp.

I’ve seen bisons using instand DR and that seemed pretty plus… Not as good as IALL I would imagine, but a reasonable facsimile for a character like him.

But yeah it ain’t all about throw/frame trap… He isn’t chun.

He can’t open people up. He can’t really bully in neutral because his walkspeed is non-existent. If he wants to do an instant DR which doesn’t give the opponent enough time to boil some water for tea and come back he has to spend meter. So how does he force his opponent to make a mistake and get hit?

I mean do you want me to pick up Bison and figure it out for you? I hit people ALL DAY with chun… Without ever being anywhere near her throw range… So how does chun do it… She presses buttons. Bison has buttons as well…

I mean what does the fact the he has to charge DR even mean? Chun has to charge kikoken… Bison also has scissors to make you not want to walk forward, and slide to make you not want to stand up (and he can even make it safe once he has v trigger… Easy ways in anyone)

I don’t use Bison so I don’t know how he hits people, all I know is that in videos I see him hitting people so I’m thinking he’s capable.

Remember that people CANT WIN unless they press buttons. So maybe bieon takes advantage of that fact? Idk. But he’s one of the highest represented characters winning online and winning/placing well in tournaments. So whatever problems he’s got, he must have some nice strengths as well.

[Muttonman]

The mk SBK combo becomes easier over time, it’s just something that your hands have to get used to, inputting st.mp~down, then hitting the late cancel feels like 2 frame timing, whereas hitting the late cancel on lk SBK feels like 6 frame window.

It’s hard to argue chun as not s tier… Simply because of iall, and tbqh foolish to do so as long as she has that move… However, that move is pretty much the only reason why some could conceivably call her unequivocally the best.

Take the move away and chun is top 5 and arguable about her position with Nash sim and Bison currently being obviously better.

But… That isn’t the reality of the game. The reality of the game is she has IALL and must be tiered accordingly.
I personally would love her to have them completely taken away so I can get back a decent throw range and play a more fundamental chun rather than needing to use stupid ass IALL in order to get anything done upclose with her.

I still don’t get the calls for Bison being top 5. What does he do to open up characters? I’ve seen a swap to using more Devil’s Reverse but you can beat that super easily, just walk back so the Headstomp would whiff then jab to catch the DR

It’s not always about opening up people. And even when it is, it isn’t always about opening them up via throws or left rights or high lows. Sometimes it’s about using fireballs to get them to jump so you can AA them, other times it’s about pressure forcing them to commit to jumps or button presses to get out of said pressure.

And let’s not forget that Bison has cr.hp.

I’ve seen bisons using instand DR and that seemed pretty plus… Not as good as IALL I would imagine, but a reasonable facsimile for a character like him.

But yeah it ain’t all about throw/frame trap… He isn’t chun.

He can’t open people up. He can’t really bully in neutral because his walkspeed is non-existent. If he wants to do an instant DR which doesn’t give the opponent enough time to boil some water for tea and come back he has to spend meter. So how does he force his opponent to make a mistake and get hit?

I mean do you want me to pick up Bison and figure it out for you? I hit people ALL DAY with chun… Without ever being anywhere near her throw range… So how does chun do it… She presses buttons. Bison has buttons as well…

I mean what does the fact the he has to charge DR even mean? Chun has to charge kikoken… Bison also has scissors to make you not want to walk forward, and slide to make you not want to stand up (and he can even make it safe once he has v trigger… Easy ways in anyone)

I don’t use Bison so I don’t know how he hits people, all I know is that in videos I see him hitting people so I’m thinking he’s capable.

Remember that people CANT WIN unless they press buttons. So maybe busing takes advantage of that fact? Idk. But he’s a bossed one of the highest represented characters winning online and winning/placing well in tournaments. So whatever problems he’s got, he must have some nice strengths as well.

I do play Bison though? And I’m not referring to the charge time on DR, but rather that if you do an instant non-EX HS into DR it takes a good long time to come out while EX HS -> DR (not EX DR, that adds a lot of startup) is fast enough to actually function as pressure on occasion.

But you have what, Moons doing decently in tournaments so far? I don’t think you should be calling a character top 5 if you can’t actually articulate why he’s good and he isn’t tearing down the house with results. Chun gets damage in pokes because she has both the walkspeed and range on her buttons to catch people trying to get in on her. If they stop pressing buttons she dashes in and forces a mixup there. Bison can’t really do the same footsie game because he has no walkspeed, nor can he really threaten the dash that well because it’s slow as hell.

Bison is going to do great online because he’s got massively on plus buttons (and man do people love smashing buttons online) and you have to react to his dash and approaches. But in an offline setting they just aren’t that impressive. I’ll willingly eat crow if he’s winning tournaments come 2-3 months out but right now I just don’t see it.

[Dime]

I can articulate it, and I DID articulate it:

Other people are hitting people with him (that’s point one)
He’s doing very well online (that’s point two)
He doesn’t need to “open people up” in order to hit them (that’s point 3)
Moons (aka someone) is doing well with him offline (that’s point 4)
And have you seen those Bison combos that moons was hitting people with? Of course you have.
So do what moons does?

You could use “it’s online” as an excuse for why Bison is winning were this not rather decent rollback code, but it IS rather decent rollback code, and if you want to say that it’s just online then you have to do the same for everyone online… So art and daigo and champ and alioune don’t count. Online doesn’t count. Oh wait… It does.

Bison at the end of the day forces buttons and can capitalize off those buttons, not a whole lot more needs to be said.

Sure he has the problem of getting blocked if all he’s trying to do is force throw mixups… So DONT TRY TO FORCE THROW MIXUPS.

I learned that I couldn’t force them with chun… So I stopped trying to force them and just started to hit my opponent. Damn trying to open people up and more try to force them into the corner or take advantage of the myriad other threats that force people to press buttons cause they don’t want to be in bad situations.

Also if it’s the NON ex DR that is the shit version… How about using the ex dr then? Do you know how many ex fireballs I throw out with chun just so I can do a shit ass high/low mixup on block, or get damage on hit?

Her ex fireball is fantastic. You’ve got to look at what your character DOES have, not what they don’t.

[Sephiroth73003]

The mk SBK combo becomes easier over time, it’s just something that your hands have to get used to, inputting st.mp~down, then hitting the late cancel feels like 2 frame timing, whereas hitting the late cancel on lk SBK feels like 6 frame window.

It’s hard to argue chun as not s tier… Simply because of iall, and tbqh foolish to do so as long as she has that move… However, that move is pretty much the only reason why some could conceivably call her unequivocally the best.

Take the move away and chun is top 5 and arguable about her position with Nash sim and Bison currently being obviously better.

But… That isn’t the reality of the game. The reality of the game is she has IALL and must be tiered accordingly.
I personally would love her to have them completely taken away so I can get back a decent throw range and play a more fundamental chun rather than needing to use stupid ass IALL in order to get anything done upclose with her.

I still don’t get the calls for Bison being top 5. What does he do to open up characters? I’ve seen a swap to using more Devil’s Reverse but you can beat that super easily, just walk back so the Headstomp would whiff then jab to catch the DR

It’s not always about opening up people. And even when it is, it isn’t always about opening them up via throws or left rights or high lows. Sometimes it’s about using fireballs to get them to jump so you can AA them, other times it’s about pressure forcing them to commit to jumps or button presses to get out of said pressure.

And let’s not forget that Bison has cr.hp.

I’ve seen bisons using instand DR and that seemed pretty plus… Not as good as IALL I would imagine, but a reasonable facsimile for a character like him.

But yeah it ain’t all about throw/frame trap… He isn’t chun.

He can’t open people up. He can’t really bully in neutral because his walkspeed is non-existent. If he wants to do an instant DR which doesn’t give the opponent enough time to boil some water for tea and come back he has to spend meter. So how does he force his opponent to make a mistake and get hit?

I mean do you want me to pick up Bison and figure it out for you? I hit people ALL DAY with chun… Without ever being anywhere near her throw range… So how does chun do it… She presses buttons. Bison has buttons as well…

I mean what does the fact the he has to charge DR even mean? Chun has to charge kikoken… Bison also has scissors to make you not want to walk forward, and slide to make you not want to stand up (and he can even make it safe once he has v trigger… Easy ways in anyone)

I don’t use Bison so I don’t know how he hits people, all I know is that in videos I see him hitting people so I’m thinking he’s capable.

Remember that people CANT WIN unless they press buttons. So maybe busing takes advantage of that fact? Idk. But he’s a bossed one of the highest represented characters winning online and winning/placing well in tournaments. So whatever problems he’s got, he must have some nice strengths as well.

I do play Bison though? And I’m not referring to the charge time on DR, but rather that if you do an instant non-EX HS into DR it takes a good long time to come out while EX HS -> DR (not EX DR, that adds a lot of startup) is fast enough to actually function as pressure on occasion.

But you have what, Moons doing decently in tournaments so far? I don’t think you should be calling a character top 5 if you can’t actually articulate why he’s good and he isn’t tearing down the house with results. Chun gets damage in pokes because she has both the walkspeed and range on her buttons to catch people trying to get in on her. If they stop pressing buttons she dashes in and forces a mixup there. Bison can’t really do the same footsie game because he has no walkspeed, nor can he really threaten the dash that well because it’s slow as hell.

Bison is going to do great online because he’s got massively on plus buttons (and man do people love smashing buttons online) and you have to react to his dash and approaches. But in an offline setting they just aren’t that impressive. I’ll willingly eat crow if he’s winning tournaments come 2-3 months out but right now I just don’t see it.

The guy is + on block with 90% of his move set while having throw range that is so far it can run kara-throw style mixups on other characters because it is so much greater then everyone elses. After anyone blocks an EX fireball you get a legit st. HK CC vs throw mixup which is a pure guess. His moves have a large number of active frames many have 3f whereas most other characters only get 2f active allowing for more legit meaty and counter-poke situations. His st. MK blows up lows much better with less strict spacing then others and in some cases has more range. cr. MP is probably the best counter poke in the game with hitbox, frame data, and hurtbox.

Counters to his moves are harder to do then him just throwing them out. I agree he is going to settle out of top 3 as time goes on but 5th or 6th isn’t unreasonable.