Street Fighter V Balance/Match Up Discussion - SHOW ME YOUR MATCH UPS

[NCK_Feroce]

You don’t need to rush,push them slowly to the corner. Outside walking forward you can jump neutral sometimes from a distance where you can hit them with cr.hp on the ground. All of that with some preemptive pokes from max distance and some Thunder Claps. When your opponent realize he’s losing ground he gonna try a jump in on you most of the time.

[Highlandfireball]

To comment on the anti-airs are too good while jump-ins are also too good sentiment:

I think the thinking is that light AAs are too good (not that AA is too good in general). For example, you read a sweep and jump it only to get knocked out of your cross-up by a dude mashing lp. It is a situation that you feel like you should have won, but actually put yourself into a blender. It is unsatisfying. No when I jump a fireball into a waiting Ryu’s shoryuken… yeah, that feels like I had that coming. He read me, and I ate some damage because of it.

On the flip side, jump-ins are so strong because you get a gross amount of damage out of them (which is itself not a bad thing). So with most AA normals trading, and DPs not being as reliable as lights, lights become the default AA. But in order to match the damage you get out of a jump-in, you have to hit a fucking ton of lights. In this sense it reminds me of poker. Sometimes it looks stupid to go all-in, but sometimes the sheer amount of chips in the pot means you have to go all-in… kind of regardless of your hand (see pot odds for more of what I’m talking about). So in that sense, unless you can stuff my jump-in 8 times with lights, the “pot odds” are still high enough that it is worth trying it. If AAs did more damage (say 2 or 3 is equivalent to jump-in damage) then jump-ins stop being desirable except on reads and set-ups.

I’ve also used the “pot odds” in my own private thoughts with the game. I used to be a good poker player and won a few decent sized tournies in my city. I’m good at calculating risk reward scenarios.

The pot odds in SF5 are all out of sync, I think that’s to do with them trying to lower the levels between players (which I think they’ve succefully done - for good or bad). Sort of what dime is saying with mid ranged conversions.

You can attempt to play footsies for 50-80 damage here and there, but unless you’ve got v-trigger you’re odds are always stacked against jump ins, crush counters or just unreactable EX moves. Ever tried to bait an EX move with a jab, only to actually get your bait jab hit by the EX move? Yeah… That’s …bollocks. That makes me shut down and play cautious. Given that at in moment a character can burst into your space ( completely destroying any kind of nuanced positioning) it means mid range for the most part feels like walking on glass.

It’s no wonder the game gets more active with V-triggers, because now it’s the opposite, you’ve got free reign of midrange with Zero consequences. Why wouldn’t Cammy spam 5 st.hp?

To comment on the anti-airs are too good while jump-ins are also too good sentiment:

I think the thinking is that light AAs are too good (not that AA is too good in general). For example, you read a sweep and jump it only to get knocked out of your cross-up by a dude mashing lp. It is a situation that you feel like you should have won, but actually put yourself into a blender. It is unsatisfying. No when I jump a fireball into a waiting Ryu’s shoryuken… yeah, that feels like I had that coming. He read me, and I ate some damage because of it.

On the flip side, jump-ins are so strong because you get a gross amount of damage out of them (which is itself not a bad thing). So with most AA normals trading, and DPs not being as reliable as lights, lights become the default AA. But in order to match the damage you get out of a jump-in, you have to hit a fucking ton of lights. In this sense it reminds me of poker. Sometimes it looks stupid to go all-in, but sometimes the sheer amount of chips in the pot means you have to go all-in… kind of regardless of your hand (see pot odds for more of what I’m talking about). So in that sense, unless you can stuff my jump-in 8 times with lights, the “pot odds” are still high enough that it is worth trying it. If AAs did more damage (say 2 or 3 is equivalent to jump-in damage) then jump-ins stop being desirable except on reads and set-ups.

Someone can correct me if im wrong, but jumping over a poke was never a good idea pre sf4.

Maybe my memory is fuzzy, but buttons have always recovered fast enough to allow anti air unless youre pressing something after they are already airborne

This is another point I’ve made before and again just like the pot odds, if you can’t even stick out buttons without fear of people jumping onto you, why bother. In SF4 it was easy to cr.mk then cancel it into a DP if they took a jump, not so much here.

Basically to me SF5 has went from a specialised fundamental game , to a more read based game. It’s went from Daigo whiff punishing your shit with sweep, to Daigo sticking out random sweeps in front of your character model ( that never get punished).

[Typhlosion]

Basically to me SF5 has went from a specialised fundamental game , to a more read based game. It’s went from Daigo whiff punishing your shit with sweep, to Daigo sticking out random sweeps in front of your character model ( that never get punished).

Well when whiff punishing is whack then why not just throw buttons out?

[Quark]

Ever tried to bait an EX move with a jab, only to actually get your bait jab hit by the EX move? Yeah… That’s …bollocks.

This is the worst.

I seem to remember Jiyuna saying on Daigo’s stream that Daigo uses jab feints a lot less in SFV for this reason. CCs probably have to do with it too.

[qspec]

The problem is everyone says everything is too safe or unsafe at the same time and they also say jump ins are too strong and anti airs are too good.

There isn’t a real direct focus with the issues of the game and no one is playing the same game. Whoever thinks the game is too defensive, someone else wishes it was more defensive.

There’s some rather nuanced medium that is the exact issue and we’ll just have to see if the fixes make people happy. Most likely not.

I can see the controversy over whether SFV is offensive or defensive by nature

But I have a really have a hard time comprehending how somebody could think AAs are too strong in this game

Watching 5 minutes of a tournament is enough to realize that jumping is highly effective right now

I think the thinking is that light AAs are too good (not that AA is too good in general). For example, you read a sweep and jump it only to get knocked out of your cross-up by a dude mashing lp. It is a situation that you feel like you should have won, but actually put yourself into a blender. It is unsatisfying. No when I jump a fireball into a waiting Ryu’s shoryuken… yeah, that feels like I had that coming.

I don’t think how good a move feels to get hit by should be a balance consideration. It’s important that hitting people feels good in a fighting game… but getting hit? That’s never gonna be fun. So it’s a nonsensical thing to balance around.

I am not saying to balance around how it feels to get hit, but I also think that it affects the game. Read your last comment. It absolutely sucks when your bait light loses to the exact thing you were trying to bait. It feels bad. It feels unintuitive. I think light AA feel the same (in some cases). There are times your jump-in feels like it should have worked only to get it stuffed by someone mashing lights like their life depended on it.

It is in the same way that your light bait sometimes gets stuffed and it feels like it shouldn’t have. Despite being bound by entirely deterministic rules, it feels shitty.

[Highlandfireball]

Basically to me SF5 has went from a specialised fundamental game , to a more read based game. It’s went from Daigo whiff punishing your shit with sweep, to Daigo sticking out random sweeps in front of your character model ( that never get punished).

Well when whiff punishing is whack then why not just throw buttons out?

That’s the point. In most cases that’s what’s happening, but to most players that feels strange in the context of what SF is. If you put on say Yukidon vs Daigo or Nuki vs Daigo ( I’m using Ryu as he’s my character, but the same still applies to Nash and Chun). You’ll see that the mid range for the most part is just a selection of buttons put out in “hope” rather than a tactical battle for space and positioning.

There’s very little walking in and out, very little punishing of badly spaced moves. It’s more just like - he pressed this - now I’ll press that.

[Cipher]

I lost the overview now.

Midrange is non existing people just throw people on guess out.
What do you want to fix it? More recovery on the moves? More range? More active frames? Or stay with the comment they just throw buttons out,there is no tactic behind it.
People did this before too, now are jabs more restricted because of CC’s and normal priority, how is this a bad thing?

Game is to defensiv, no it’s to offensiv.
What now? Is it to offensiv or to defensiv?

How can AA’s be to good,while jump-ins are to strong?

Someone explain me this, I’m confused and little birds fly around my head.

[Plaid_Unicorn]

Honestly a bunch of safe on block strings and special moves sound pretty god awful right now for SFV. I’m not seeing how that is going to fix the problem in nuetral that you are seeing.

[DevilJin_01]

I lost the overview now.

Midrange is non existing people just throw people on guess out.
What do you want to fix it? More recovery on the moves? More range? More active frames? Or stay with the comment they just throw buttons out,there is no tactic behind it.
People did this before too, now are jabs more restricted because of CC’s and normal priority, how is this a bad thing?

Game is to defensiv, no it’s to offensiv.
What now? Is it to offensiv or to defensiv?

How can AA’s be to good,while jump-ins are to strong?

Someone explain me this, I’m confused and little birds fly around my head.

Does anyone wanna explain Kazunoko’s Yun in SFIV?

[Highlandfireball]

I lost the overview now.

Midrange is non existing people just throw people on guess out.
What do you want to fix it? More recovery on the moves? More range? More active frames? Or stay with the comment they just throw buttons out,there is no tactic behind it.
People did this before too, now are jabs more restricted because of CC’s and normal priority, how is this a bad thing?

Game is to defensiv, no it’s to offensiv.
What now? Is it to offensiv or to defensiv?

How can AA’s be to good,while jump-ins are to strong?

Someone explain me this, I’m confused and little birds fly around my head.

Actually it is some of those things you said. Active frames need to be better, they made everything about this game easy but took away your ability to simply put someone in blockstun in certain situations because reasons. The lag either needs to be reduced or the buttons slightly faster ( if you add the lag plus the start up of moves now, we are basically trying to whiff punish with moves that are anywhere from 1-3 frames slower than other games). In a fighter 2 or 3 frames is massive. Remember they used to reduce buttons in SF4 change log by 1 frame and people considered that a decent buff? That was in a game with less lag too.

The box interaction is also strange, you get put in proximity block easily. Honestly though we’ve been down this road 3-4 times now , so we are beating a dead horse a bit. I mentioned this on release, then after about 2 months, then now.

If you want to see what anyone else is saying then Dime copied me in on a tweet from Xian talking to PR Rog and James Chen, he basically said what most of us have said from the beginning.

I don’t have Twitter, but @Dime_x could copy you on it if you’re interested.

Edit: I think I found it in my messenger. It’s here

RΛZΞR Xian (XianMSG)

[Cipher]

Lets just wait how the game plays after the input lag reduction,what will come after CapCup.

After all,this might shift the balance a lot and fix a lot of problems like people predicted.

I don’t like beating dead horses, I usualy say it once and then drink tea until there is a change.
At least in SFV, I don’t have these moments anymore,where my opponents throw the whole time safe moves out and I try to outspace their stuff in a laggy online enviromeant. SFIV with online lag was way worse than SFV is now with the input lag.
Online was a different horse anyway.

[Quark]

Well, Capcom is only planning on 1 real balance patch a year, so I think it’s important for the community to express gameplay concerns now rather than later. If they reduce input lag by another frame and it fixes all of SFV’s problems… great! If it doesn’t do the trick though, we’re stuck with those problems for another year.

I think addressing some of the specific problems we’ve talked about (such as low active frames, weak AAs, etc) in conjunction with an input lag fix would be the best solution. Assuming that a latency fix would resolve everything is excessively optimistic IMO.

Actually, even assuming that there will be another latency fix may be excessively optimistic.

[Typhlosion]

I think backrolling should have a pop up like counterhits do. I just really hate backrolling because I don’t enjoy playing neutral in this game(I don’t like playing neutral at all, but that’s just me being bad).

I think Anti-air specials should be rewarded like juri’s is. When juri anti airs you with her mk pinwheel you get pressure(Unless they backroll).

[killthevibe]

People also throw out random buttons in neutral because the reward for landing a random crush counter is high.

I lost the overview now.

Midrange is non existing people just throw people on guess out.
What do you want to fix it? More recovery on the moves? More range? More active frames? Or stay with the comment they just throw buttons out,there is no tactic behind it.
People did this before too, now are jabs more restricted because of CC’s and normal priority, how is this a bad thing?

Game is to defensiv, no it’s to offensiv.
What now? Is it to offensiv or to defensiv?

How can AA’s be to good,while jump-ins are to strong?

Someone explain me this, I’m confused and little birds fly around my head.

Ok let me help u out

SFV has a huge deadzone that begins outside of jab mash range. Even characters who specialize at the mid range have had that aspect of their play neutered. Walkspeeds have been reduced, normals made significantly shorter, Fireballs made shittier, damaging anti-airs removed or made much riskier/shittier, the few decently ranged pokes do low damage and almost never lead into anything worthwhile. Plus you have crush counters meaning your shitty low damage poke that leads into nothing can get crush countered and you can lose a huge chunk of life. This is why footsies in SFV largely consists of throwing out random buttons and hoping your opponent runs into them. If they don’t then you start the guessing game of “will I dash in or jump” like Dieninion said. The spacing, poking and whiff punishing aspect of SF has taken a massive hit in this iteration.

But that’s not the only problem… To be honest I’d be fine if they just simply wanted a game where most of the action happens at jab range.

The thing is, the ways of pressuring people at close range has ALSO been dumbed down. This is why sooo many people complain about dull and repetitive pressure.

So…u see now what I mean? SF5 is a game that was made for scrubs. From the ground up.

Now I’m not saying there’s no skill involved or that the game can’t be saved. I’m not even expecting Capcom to fix all that shit I listed above.

All I’m hoping for S2 is that it brings back the fun factor. At least make the game fun. I don’t really care how they do it. If they add some crazy new mechanic or put out some massive balance changes, etc.

I just really hope the new patch has a meaningful impact on the game and is not just some incrementalist upgrade.

E- also the input lag absolutely needs to be reduced. They need to bring that shit down 2 more frames

[Muttonman]

Backrolling was a mistake. Should have had either no backroll or no quickrise.

As for characters I actually think the top tier is in a pretty good place. The only real changes I’d make are standardizations; stuff like Ryu j.lk having a real hurtbox, Chun getting an expanded crouching hurtbox, having an actual height restriction on IALL (hell, do the same thing they did to Cammy back in SFIV; you can TK the EX version but not the regular) although that would probably require a buff elsewhere to compensate.

The most important thing is that Stage Fatalities, such as the fireworks or bus, only happen on a win.

[Quark]

I think backrolling should have a pop up like counterhits do. I just really hate backrolling because I don’t enjoy playing neutral in this game(I don’t like playing neutral at all, but that’s just me being bad).

That’s a good idea. Alternatively they could make the little circle that pops up when you recover a different color based on whether you quick or back rose. I’d rather BR be removed entirely but seeing as it’s likely to stay, it shouldn’t be such a pain in the ass to react to. Especially in the corner.

[Highlandfireball]

Well, Capcom is only planning on 1 real balance patch a year, so I think it’s important for the community to express gameplay concerns now rather than later. If they reduce input lag by another frame and it fixes all of SFV’s problems… great! If it doesn’t do the trick though, we’re stuck with those problems for another year.

I think addressing some of the specific problems we’ve talked about (such as low active frames, weak AAs, etc) in conjunction with an input lag fix would be the best solution. Assuming that a latency fix would resolve everything is excessively optimistic IMO.

Actually, even assuming that there will be another latency fix may be excessively optimistic.

The real question at the root of the problem is really - is the game designed to play like this? If that’s a yes then there’s no “fix” it’s just us wanting a more traditional game.

Back when SFxT was being designed the goal of Gems was to make harder things easy for beginners and to make fighting a better player not so much of a large gap. From memory Capcom even had a concept diagram to show how to make the gap between players possible through design.

My gut feeling, like what killthevibe just mentioned, is that this is just the way they want game to run. The clues are in the design - unusually long hit stun, simple inputs, screen freezes, larger Windows, buffer system, priority buttons…

The games been engineered to play like this, I don’t think it’s a case of turning down the lag and making sweeps faster.

[HNIC_Mike]

I think there is no fixing of the neutral.

Whats really happening is that there arent many safe things you can do at traditional footsie range.

Your button is either jump in punishable on whiff or terribly unsafe on block. Or its just too short. Theres exceptions to this but they arent typical. Also the things that are exceptions usually arent rewarding.

Its not that sf4 had tons of whiff punishing all day every day, but the buttons were more safe, had more range, and the reward was higher, so you had more interaction.

You could guess with whatever you were pressing more often, and you werent worried about being -14 and inside combo punish range if you tried to whiff punish and missed.

I dont think it gets changed without overhauling crush counters or doing big changes to everyones normals.

That said I think its fine. Theres still an interesting game to play. Defending neutral space is hard but it isnt impossible.

[Dime]

I lost the overview now.

Midrange is non existing people just throw people on guess out.
What do you want to fix it? More recovery on the moves? More range? More active frames? Or stay with the comment they just throw buttons out,there is no tactic behind it.
People did this before too, now are jabs more restricted because of CC’s and normal priority, how is this a bad thing?

Game is to defensiv, no it’s to offensiv.
What now? Is it to offensiv or to defensiv?

How can AA’s be to good,while jump-ins are to strong?

Someone explain me this, I’m confused and little birds fly around my head.

I already explained this, it’s on the same page that I quoted this post from.

Here, I’ll break it down in easy to understand terms:

The “offense” in the game caters to beginners.

The “defense” in the game caters to beginners.

There is little nuance to the game, there is little for a player with a deep knowledge of fighting games to take and have fun with.

[Highlandfireball]

I think there is no fixing of the neutral.

Whats really happening is that there arent many safe things you can do at traditional footsie range.

Your button is either jump in punishable on whiff or terribly unsafe on block. Or its just too short. Theres exceptions to this but they arent typical. Also the things that are exceptions usually arent rewarding.

Its not that sf4 had tons of whiff punishing all day every day, but the buttons were more safe, had more range, and the reward was higher, so you had more interaction.

You could guess with whatever you were pressing more often, and you werent worried about being -14 and inside combo punish range if you tried to whiff punish and missed.

I dont think it gets changed without overhauling crush counters or doing big changes to everyones normals.

Agreed, you have to overhaul the game.