But then NJ wouldn’t beat meaty throws.
I agree with dime that the tech window needs to be reduced. 7 frames is honestly ridiculous.
qspec
5342
True, but doesn’t it single-handedly weaken the OS? Now you’re giving up ground on anything but a meaty, right? The throw tech is more desirable than “jump back” because you don’t lose position. Also, it brings it more inline with other fighters… because if memory serves, the low-block, jump OS exists in most fighters.
And for what it is worth, this doesn’t add an extra one. It just nerfs the current one making the OS you’re talking about the next best option. It already exists.
@Dime_x
Wasn’t 7 frames the tech window in SFIV? I don’t think there would be any issue with dropping it to 5 frames. Throws aren’t so amazing that a buff to them would kill the game. Though I do feel that they are far better than a lot of people on here seem to think. And as a Rashid player, I support any increase to throw range… but now I’m being selfish.
Dime
5344
You should run osayu’s throw mixup…that shit looks completely ridonk:
St.lk,cr.lp,cr.mp
Throw after the st.lk or cr.lp
The tech time after st.lk is less than other characters because cammy doesn’t have to take a step forward before throwing.
From the games I’ve seen, osayu is destroying people with this strat and he is doing it over and over and over again flowchart looping it.
Yeah I’ve been using it. It’s good.
qspec
5346
Damn! I was way off…
I’d love to see what it would look like for throws to go back to being 3 frames with a 4 frame tech window. I think maybe the over-compensated since the throw OS was going to be removed?
Having 3 frame throws would give some characters like FANG a (more) reliable way to punish shit at point blank.
Of course, it could make dash, dash throw pretty intense… but of course, throws are probably the weakest of all mix-ups by design… so there is definitely room for buffs.
I disagree strongly about Ibuki being better or even with Laura. Yes they both have to play a mix up game and burn meter, but Laura hits harder, has one of the best aerials in jump mk, and is more mobile than her walk speed indicates because of her v-skill. Laura legitimately wrecks havoc on anyone who doesn’t have a a reversal once she gets going - she has an overhead, a command grab, amazing frame traps and damaging set play that naturally flows into one another. And even if you do have a reversal, all it takes is one block and you’re going to pay. She also has highy underrated normals that can intercept moves and counter poke far more safely than Ibuki can. St.mk and St.hk are GREAT moves. She also has much more health.
Juri definitely has much better neutral than Ibuki.
I don’t see how she’s better than Sim, Birdie or FANG because those characters can all run their game safer than she can and aren’t as trigger or meter reliant. They all have way better neutral too. They legitimately have advantageous matches and I don’t know who Ibuki flat out beats? @Quark says Sim? What makes it bad?
I think you’re underselling how bad her poor neutral affects her ability to win matches. It flat out sucks, and counter poking exclusively is limited and will only get you so far. I just don’t see how a game where strong neutral is so important can have a character with her options be that high on the tier list. Yes her overhead is safe but it’s also slow AF and has a huge hurt box that can either be grapped or jabbed. Her teleport dash mix ups are great but still risky in a lot of scenarios no matter how well they are set up.
As for the DLC, Balrog hits like a truck, has much better buttons, a trigger just as dangerous if not more so. Alex’s set play is legit, his buttons are very legit, and since we’re on the topic of comebacks, his damage is HUGE. Juri is just as quick but doesn’t have the giant hurtbox issues that Ibuki has. She also isn’t as trigger dependent. Guile’s play style is naturally more abrasive to a characters who need to work through projectiles than Ibuki’s. His zoning is strong and he hits hard for the first time in a long time with trigger combos.
Just not seeing her being better than half the cast at all. There’s 8 characters she’s 100% not better than and then I’m not seeing how she’s better than Vega, Rashid, Laura, Birdie, Sim, or the DLC characters. She has to play extremely on point with options that are dangerous but inherently flawed and risky, and I don’t think she has the health or guaranteed damage to compensate. Maybe in time I’ll see the light, but I doubt it until she gets buff.
Dime
5348
The “actual” tech window varies by situation and character for certain reasons.
To make a long story short, yes the tech window is 6 frames, but that 6 frames can actually become around 12-15 frames when you account for some characrers having to walk forward after a jab to throw the opponent as well as the throw animation itself being unthrowable.
Like if you just add the throw animation and the tech window together, you find that throws actually have a 11 frame tech window (5 frame throw startup and 6 frame tech window) so even though TECHNICALLY the throw tech window is one frame less than sf4, the throw startup being 2 frames more actually makes the actual tech window for non meaties throws, larger than they were in sf4.
If you can meaty a throw though, like when someone is waking up or landing from a flip out, then you can get a true 6 frame throw tech window, which is actually very hard to option select which is why doing shimmies right there are great as the opponent can’t walk out of the throw, nor can they jab out if the throw is meaty so they are forced to use throw invincible moves or tech, or take the throw.
No I mean I want it to be 4 frames lol
It is difficult to zone, but the difference between this and SF4 is its not scary when your zone gets broken.
Quark
5351
There was some talk of this a few pages back, but essentially Sim can’t throw fireballs in neutral since kunais can punish them on reaction. Combine that with the fact that jump-in kunais beat Sim’s grounded AA limbs (except for b+HP which is usually too slow to use on reaction) and you have a matchup where Sim has very little control of neutral. Although Sim can beat her jump-ins with air-to-airs, that forces him to float around which opens the ground up to her command dash.
And like most characters she just goes ham on Sim once she gets in.
Do we have any idea what concessions were made to build this game around online play, and if they’ll likely turn their back on them ?
amrraed
5353
I think the most obvious one is the input buffer during links to make them easier. It doesn’t look like the input lag was " intentional " to me but who knows ?
There is just one change i want for Juri that will skyrocket her in this game and make her that much more viable. I want the ability to link after a LK fireball like SF4 even point blank, I think the fact that she needs to store/charge first is a fair enough compensation for that. Even if i can only link lights but it would make her so much more fun and more viable overall IMO.
I don’t even care if she loses 50 HP just to get that change.
Agree. After months trying how to be consistent on the offense I’ve found my dimension with Karin simply making my entire game more slow, without going for heavy pressure. After gaining the lifelead my gameplan relies on punish the opponent staying at a distance where I can react whatever he do. Honestly I don’t know if that is because of the entire flow of the game since characters like Mika don’t need that passive approach,probably even the archetype of most of the cast is a consequence of this. There aren’t many rushdown characters atm and the few ones are forced to gain as possible from the momentum like Mika again. Daigo knows how to play turtle when he wants to, in SF4 he tries Akuma for a bit and the Japanese starts call him ‘Nigehara’, nige means keep-away. The input lag I’m sure don’t help his style,but with a turtle style he’s able to control better the match and punish the opponent who tries to go on offense.
Personally I don’t think is a game where you need to beat characters so much. It’s more about who you don’t lose to. I say Ibuki doesn’t really lose to much anyone other than like a few of the top tiers and not that bad even. I have her even vs most characters and I would say she definitely beats Sim like said before, will be on her way to beating Fang, beats Guile, she actually beats a lot of the same characters that Cammy does IMO, just Cammy is a bit more solid. Ibuki can keep pressure lasting longer than Cammy who’s pressure is arguably more resource reliant (if you don’t have EX dives or V Trigger dives she’s pretty simple to block other than shimmies.
I dunno I just don’t see what’s risky about a character that has safe or plus on block pretty much everything that you’re going to attack with and combos that always lead to meaties. You have other characters that have to guess which wake up people are doing whereas Ibuki pretty much never has to worry about it.
Guile hits “hard” but only in extreme situations that aren’t conducive to his play style. You have to completely break out of your zoning element to land anything that’s heavy damage with Guile. Plus his buttons that actually frame trap aren’t really good to start it off to begin with. All of Guile’s damaging stuff is really tough to land in an actual match. He only lands damaging stuff when the opponent makes a big mistake. He has no way of reliably landing that big damage. Guile’s comeback potential is extremely situational and just makes him another “win if you’re winning, get ready to lose if you aren’t” character. He can hold on to life leads, but I don’t think that’s the ideal play style for this kinda game.
Juri has strong points to her, but at this time she just doesn’t have the ability to win as quickly as Ibuki does. Ibuki is better at opening people up without her resources than Juri is who is almost completely reliant on her resources to land any real bnbs or open anyone up. Her neutral in of itself is solid, but the lack of ability to open people up with it without your resources stock or even have the openings lead to more stuff hurts her for creating momentum. Ibuki has access to a much wider variety of bnbs even without any kunais and her post combo pressure is top notch even when not using any resources. As opposed to Juri who just tends to have a bunch of stuff that you have to watch backrises on and has a throw that puts you at a range to store instead of a range to pressure.
Rog I say is better now because he’s easier to play, but he will inevitably have a really tough time vs grappler characters who will force him to continually make bad decisions on his wake up. Plus a V Reversal that if blocked pretty much hurls him into their command grab pressure. Ibuki will have better ranged tools to deal with characters like Gief and a legitimate EX reversal to call out pressure without having to block first.
She’s definitely better than Birdie and Sim. Don’t really think that has to be explained but I can if needed. She’s basically as good as Rashid or Laura at this time. Not as good as Claw, but not much worse either.
There’s things to agree or disagree on, but she surely isn’t bottom 5 or the worst character. If you play the character at all you can easily go through her toolset and see that she has much more to work with than several of the other characters.
Yeah, we’ll have to disagree. Cammy isn’t just a “bit more” more solid than Ibuki. She’s a LOT better.
I see tiers like this: How fail proof is your character’s game plan? How many ways can they initiate it? How safely can they do so? What are the inherent flaws that comes with the character’s gameplan in regards to their tool set? How relevant is the strength of your character’s gameplan compared to what other characters can do?
^ That + general match ups.
Birdie and Sims gameplan and tool set leads to a lot more consistent results than Ibukis to me, so I don’t agree with her definitely being better than either. I can’t name 5 characters I unquestionably think Ibuki is better than. I don’t have same faith in her abilities as you.
Like I said earlier, I think you’re underselling her flaws and over-accentuating her strengths. Yes, she ABSOLUTELY has much more to work with than a Birdie or an Alex or a Balrog. I see the walk speed, the 3 frame jab, the powerful mix ups, and the invincible reversal. I peep it. I just don’t think she can be as effective as she would if it weren’t for her buttons holding her back. I don’t think they balanced her strengths and weaknesses well at all.
PS: Forgot to mention in all these posts where I highlight Ibuki’s problems that she’s a 900 health character with a 3 bar V-trigger.
What do some of the forum’s more strategy saavy players think of Ibuki? @Veserius @UltraDavid @LoyalSol @Necrotrophic
Do you think Ibuki is better than Bison @Zeniside ?
I don’t think ibuki’s normals are holding her back. If they were any better like near cammy’s normals, she would probably be busted. I think it’s just the combination of her v-trigger and her health that holds her back. If her health was higher or v-trigger was 2 stocks, her weaknesses wouldn’t be too glaring.
Zenside thinks the half eaten McChicken sandwich lying on his TE stick is better than Bison.
Ibuki is solid, if the player knows Bomb set ups and uses Kunai smartly then she can turn a round very quickly. She’s also in the bunch of characters that get a free crush counter button although I find hers one of the easier ones to whiff punish.
Dime
5359
I wasn’t asked but I think her buttons suck, therefor she isn’t all that great.
But you’d be hard pressed to find me a character who’s buttons suck that I’d think was good.
I consider “buttons” to be a characters specials and normals.
To me a characters buttons are the foundation of the character. If the foundation is bad, I don’t care if it’s got the Taj Mahal on it, to me it’s only a matter of time till the foundation cracks and the character is exposed as a gimmick machine.
I could be wrong on ibuki as she does have some slightly mediocre buttons like fhk and v skill. But her only other good buttons are her kunais which can’t be spammed and aren’t good uncanceled into kunais… And since they have to be spaced or canceled into it leaves ibuki with a hole in her “priority” specifically the range where one would want to use normals.
IMHO she’s terrible just inside her own cr.mk range as she has no safe high priority options there. And just outside her cr.mk range she’s decent with fhk… But I mean it’s no world beater. It’s just slightly functional.
I’d change my tune if I saw some better use of her buttons but I haven’t seen that yet.
You can do with Ibuki what you can do with Cammy ( I think it’s her st.mp) st.mp OS v trigger cancel two bombs half life gone and another mix up.
Lots of characters have shit buttons in SF5. I’ve played a pretty high level Ibuki on several occasions, while I think Ryu beats her, it’s no walk in the park since air kunai - command grab is still a good option. Once you’re in that mixer it can be as bad as Mika.
You just have to play that patient game we were just talking about.
