5281

Gief players are getting better as well. His neutral is very different from sf4.

5282

Roll back netcode double post

5283

Yeah I can’t see it as a 7-3. No way.

Gief has answers for chuns shit now. before in sf4 he kinda didn’t.

In sf4 though people still think that st.hk was the gief beater… It wasn’t. Gief could shit on that move in multiple ways.

The gief beater was chuns st.hp. That shit wrecked his world.

I looked like Justin wong using nothing but sthp against gief players in sf4. It was like the only move I needed and it beat all of his buttons save for 1.

It means nothing but I just lost a set a couple of days ago to a gief online. He was a good player but not terribly so. I lost 4-5.

Giefs ability to soak up damage and give it out as well as suck Chun in from miles away really does change the matchup.

And if Chun ever gets fruity with the sthk shit gief crumples it FREE with his st.hk and if Chun gets happy with her sthp gief can v skill that shit into crazy damage.

Gief has good options for stopping chuns cr.lp spam on wakeup and from there can mix her up.

It’s still advantaged Chun for sure… But it ain’t no 7-3.

5284

Playing against Geif with Laura makes me tear my fucking hair out…

5285

Alex has some good options, some of his stuff is punishable or spaces him too far away for any realistic follow up attack. It’s been a long time since I played a decent Alex though. I don’t feel like I really need to keep him out my face as much as someone like Cammy or Mika. He’s kinda like Balrog, I have to be careful, but it’s not essential that I use them.

V-reversal really changes a lot of matches now where the character just wants to put you in block stun for grab mix ups.

5286

Same thing with Guile and Juri. They are definitely going to come up (especially Juri) but how different they are from the older games has a lot of people still burnt out and confused.

5287

Gief can literally win that match with st hk, st lp and headbutt.

5288

You actually have to block more against Sim in V because there is no focus to negate his neutral. Don’t forget about that. Ibuki can full screen punish Yoga fire with kunai’s for free. A lot of characters can punish it for free on reaction, when it wouldn’t be possible with a horizontal fireball.

Bison can slide, Alex can elbow, Balrog can non EX rush punch, Cammy can non EX arrow, Vega can Slide, Nash can spin kick, Ken can step kick, Birdie can non EX bullhorn, Rashid can non EX eagle kick, Laura can non EX elbow. Don’t forget about just dashing to get into the deadzone or just simply dash and use a fast horizontal attack to punish on reaction.

I don’t see how SFV Sim fireball game is on par with SFIV. Don’t forget that he could Yoga tower to just rise above fireballs, it was easier to drill over fireballs because the hurtboxes were much smaller, he had 4 viable far normals to poke under fireballs, NJ.hp could punish and avoid a fireball from near 3/4 screen, his jump arc was better so he could jump forward from full screen and punish a fireball with J.hp, his teleport punishes were just as effective (just less damage), they covered the ground which setup his AA; ground; and TP mix-up game.

It doesn’t matter all that much how much range other characters normals have when they can just press st.lk and counter poke all four of Sim’s ranged normals.

His limbs haven’t been toned down slightly.

SFIV: St.hp-10/6/16 and -3 on guard.
SFV: St.hp- 20/3/22 and -6 on guard.

SFV St.hp can be punished by 4 or 5 different supers on guard.

SFIV frame data;

St.mk 9/3/14
St.mp 9/3/14
St.hp 10/6/16
St.hk 13/4/16
St.lk 7/4/8
D/Df.lp 9/4/11
D/Df.mp 12/3/16
D/Df.hp 14/3/21

SFV Frame data;

St.mk- 10/2/14
St.mp- 12/2/17
St.hp-20/3/22
St.hk-16/2/23

You could use St.hp, d/df.mp, d/df.lp, and d/df.hp to punish fireballs on reaction. In V, St.hp can only punish fireballs on prediction.

SFV Sim’s fireball and far normals are simply serviceable. I don’t think there is a single Sim player that would call them good, besides St.mk.

5289

I think I’ve put another finger on my dislikes for the game. The game is really good when nobody has V-trigger, then once the red bar it up , a clown comes in and just throws a bucket of paint all over the screen and says " Fuck your fighting game!"

5290

This has become an argument that is to complicated for me to truly care about. Almsot everything you are saying goes against what I’ve played against.

Not EVERYTHING you are saying, just most of it.

Like as an example ibukis kunai hits him? Ok that’s fine… She doesn’t get much from that though.

Sim in sf4 could die EASILY from one confirm due to vortex. It only took one bad fireball or st.mk for him to die to me… And those are both moves that he REALLY needed to abuse in order to win.

This sim, no matter how much you want to re itterate how bad his normals are, aren’t THAT bad and he doesn’t die to 1-2 touches anymore either.

The data that you provided literally means nothing to me as far as frames are concerned as I’ve already said that this is a different game. It’s like you are posting useless facts to try and call attention to the fact that your argument is “smart” and studied. His normals could be 3 times worse than they were in sf4 and it would mean nothing because numbers in a vacuum mean nothing.

Iirc jump times and jump arcs in sf5 are slower and more floaty than in sf4. The average jump speed in sf5 is 38 frames and I think it’s less than that in sf4… As one example.

And there are more… But frame fighter largely doesn’t matter to me in the context that you are using it.

It simply proves that THIS sim is slower and has more recovery than sf4 sim, but that matters nil if everyone’s recovery and range and hitboxes have also been adjusted as well… In this game of sf5.

I already said why I think his fireball is good. I won’t repeat it. It works for what it works for and it does it WELL.

I’m feeling the need to agree to disagree here as your arguments are doing nothing to sway me and I’m pretty sure mine are doing nothing to sway you either.

Disagreements happen, some people like seafood and some don’t. It’s all good dude.

5291

You don’t play Dhalsim Dime though, you end up trying to apply logic to scenarios just on paper. I mean does that other dude play Sim? He’s prolly got a good idea.

Even with Focus, this Dhalsims zoning isn’t as good as SF4’s IMO. I mean Ryu beats Sim in this…

5292

I agree with Dime. Sim’s buttons are good for this game and he has tools to avoid the buttons and projectiles of every other character in the game. He’s good at playing neutral and not being in the neutral at the same time.

A little bit of anime never hurt.

Plus that scenario was way worse in Killer Instinct. VT is still way more modest than Instinct pops.

5293

Sims weaknesses IMO a larger and I’m not sure if his strengths equal him out.

  • Reversal Super loses to low pressure on wake up, effectively making it not a reversal unless you are playing against someone with no hands or eyes.
  • V-trigger and flame both lose to V-reversal which means not only does he not have any V-trigger once he pops it, he doesn’t have any V-reversal either
  • Slide is punishable always you get your turn sometimes even a combo
  • Fireball lets you dash up sweep or generally just dash
  • Dashes are insanely fast in this game meaning taking 2-3 mediums is ok to get in
  • he’s generally weak to lows anyway because he wants to back away
  • Teleports a bad idea anywhere but a KD
  • His dive kick has to be spaced pretty well
  • EX moves in this game usually go full screen exter and leave you unpunishable

Strengths

  • Good EX moves and hit confirm combos
  • Good block strings that push him out
  • Good tech beater with gale
  • Can hit confirm super fairly easily
  • Good AA
  • Good jab
  • Good throw game
  • Decent damage but not super scary.

Most of his strengths (IMO) are close up stuff, not zoning material.

That’s my ten cents and that’s all purely from playing against a couple of Ultra Plat sims regularly, one being a mate.

Don’t ask me about buffs though, I have no idea what would make or break him.

5294

You don’t know me well enough to know whether I’m talking about “on paper” or actual matchups that I play.

I have a sim that likes to play me that is always inviting me into battle lounges. I played sim in sf4 as well.

Guess what character I could beat/ come closest to beating the top socal players with? Sf4 Sim.

Guess what character I had the least experience with to actually beat people? Sf4 Sim.

You can talk about Chun even though you don’t use her. I can talk about sim even though I don’t use him in sf5… Since you know, I play against him.

Ryu can beat sim in nearly every version of the game. I don’t think it’s worse than 6/4 sims favor and if the Ryu is smart and uses his DP intelligently, the matchup stops seeming so in sims favor. It’s still sims favor but not exceptionally so:

And there are also many more matches of Cole losing to various ryus that simply DP his limbs.

To beat Ryu hard the sim has to out fireball Ryu and not rely on limbs the way Cole does. But once sim starts up the fireball zoning then Ryu can hurricane kick him and can play sims game by matching fireballs.

The only time I’ve really seen the match to be hugely in sims favor is sf4 and that’s primarily because sim in sf4 is REALLY good outside some matchups where he just gets fucking anihilated by characters that simply don’t give 1 shit about his limbs and just go over them or through them. I don’t think there is a matchup like that in 5… Though since I don’t play sim I don’t know. He has counters to his stuff… Of course. He always has.

Bottom line is if you play a sf5 sim that is teleporting to you to try and left/right mix you up… You aren’t playing a sim that play the matchup well. He should teleport but ONLY on a fireball read… Other than that he should really never be trying to do telemixups or anything like that as that’s just free damage to the other person.

One of the primary ways I beat sim in sf5 is when he teleports to me. Seriously, he shouldn’t do that.

5295

Whats the point of showing a SF2 match! lol

5296

About the same point as “sims zoning sucks in this because sim can’t beat Ryu”

I mean we are talking Ryu here. The best character in the game arguably and almost definitely at least the second best character. And he is one of “the best” due to his superior zoning skills… While still having some of the easier rushdown and defense in the game.

I mean seriously, has it never occurred to you that maybe sim doesn’t beat Ryu not cause sim sucks… But because Ryu is quite good?

Also, people are talking sf4 in here so… To me that allows sf2 and other games since hey, a lot of sf2 strategies still apply.

Ryu can still DP sims limbs and he can still hurricane kick past the fireball

(He can hurricane kick the fireball right?) that’s one that I haven’t actually seen in sf5.

5297

No point in Dp’ing limbs or tatsu fireball when they carry risks that you don’t need to take, might as well parry or dash up, I mean yeah you can do it, but it’s just ham strategy, I wouldn’t say it’s part of the match up.

Ryu wins because Ryu’s close game is good and like everyone else he’s got a good dash and plus normals. In SF4 you could go a whole round against Sim without touching him til you were at half life, in this it’s just a matter of time, it’s not hard to break down at all. Sims also really good online where you can’t react to anything, I’d imagine there’s a ton of Sims up there in the Diamond but in reality I’ve not seen any great tourney wins or showings from him, at least not as soon as a good player enters the ring.

I think he’s decent, I thought he was amazing when the game hit, but then I quickly realised I was just getting beat by online shit in the first 2-3 months.

I still think zoning for the most part is below par in this game unless your Nash. Ryu’s zoning isn’t really traditional zoning IMO, it’s more like patient defensive play til he gets a chance to open up a character with meter or V-trigg. It’s too risky to play mid range games when characters can swing bats at you with V-trigger. I guess it goes back to what I was saying before, the games a lot more interactive when characters are raw at the start of rounds, but then it becomes far too risky to start getting involved once Supers and V-triggers are on the table.

5298

Everything that you say sounds like you don’t know the Sim MU. It sounds like you have trouble in the mid-range against him, but his mid-range has huge holes in it and that’s what I’ve been trying to explain to you. What you think is strong, isn’t really that strong, IMO, because it doesn’t match up to my experience actually playing the character.

You keep saying not to make comparisons to SFIV, yet you continue to make comparisons to SFIV. One rule for Ye, another for thee.

Ibuki nullifies Sim’s fireball game because Kunai can be thrown, full screen, on reaction to a Yoga fire. Yoga Fire has 15F startup and 38F recovery. She can throw the kunai and still block the fireball. You call that not much? Are you serious?

The reason I posted the frame data is to show how his normals and fireball interact in a vacuum. There are major holes in his fireball and far limb game. St.hp is SLOW. It would be slow in Virtua Fighter. Way to just gloss over all of my examples.

Sim’s jump is around the same total frames as IV. He just doesn’t go as far. This example is to help my argument that he had more fireball punishes in IV. It’s apart of the conversation with you and Jin.

Sim still dies to one confirm, if you throw out a bad fireball or bad normal he’s gonna eat 40 to 50% and stun will be a factor.

Up until point I thought we were having a discussion, not an argument. We might have to agree to disagree, because you seem to be a brick wall.

5299

Holy shit. I need to start refreshing the page when I’m at work. One rule indeed.

5300

Smh, a topic I didn’t want to discuss anyways and I already said you wouldn’t be chnging my mind via your words, then you throw up more words, call me a brick wall not realising to look at the man in the mirror (im certainly a brick wall on this, I know it and already pointed it out, but so you are you you hypocrite)

Then I make reference to other games since you also made reference to other games and all of a sudden I’m wrong simply because I said not to make reference to other games?

I was simply trying to not dismiss your points. Guess next time I will.

Oh and you will see there is nothing in this post about dhalsim. That’s because as I said, I don’t want to argue the point. I knew before hand the resistance I would get and I already knew why and why I disagree with those points.

I’ve been civil even though I said I didn’t want to have this convo, even though I knew what the convo would eventually degenerate into. You’ve for the most part been civil as well so I suggest we stop this line of argument before stupid shit gets said:

I might not know the midrange game against sim… You are right.

But YOU might also not know how to conduct sims midrange game against good players and get blown out because of that.

Or it could be that both us are trash… Either way, doesn’t matter, I have my opinion as well as videos I’ve seen between similar skill sets of players and you have your opinion and I’m sure also have videos between similar skill sets of players in your favor.

Like I said… This isn’t a convo I really wanted to get into in the first place. I think that ATM it’s a bit to subjective to call.

Feel free to disagree.