Street Fighter V Balance/Match Up Discussion - SHOW ME YOUR MATCH UPS

[Dime]

I just want throws to be better, and I wouldn’t mind if backdashes got hugely nerfed in some way.

This caught my attention because it’s such a sweeping statement.

I prefer if Capcom approached this on a character by character basis. Some characters could warrant really fast front or backdashes. Others not so much. Even the dash distance should be variable rather than universal.

Likewise, some characters could warrant better throws than others. So if a character needs their dashes or throws buffed/nerfed, we make a case for them specifically.

Given the intent behind the V-system, it makes sense that Capcom follow it to its only logical conclusion and expanding it to other character traits (which they already started to do). The differences between each character ought to be become more honed, defined, and specific IMO. Perhaps even to the point where each character feels like they have their own little ‘-ism’ or ‘groove’ to play around with. Such an endeavor is infinitely more appealing to me right now than SF5 trying to be or feel anything like its predecessors.

I totally agree with this, but I think making it less homogenous would cause people to compare streetfighter to anime more than they already do.

Like I could see v skills making a characters throw range much longer, for an activation. Or making one dash move further forward… Or making a fireball gain weird characteristics… All a bunch of one time only things that could actually make v skills very nice and good. Like once character might get an unbreakable throw… That’s basically a command grab, but one time only without the command grab damage, but also without the command grab wiff animation. It could become integral to a characters gameplay without being overpowered especially if the character gained nothing from the grab itself bestows damage.

There are LOTS of things they could do with v skills, the only problem is how anime they actually want the game to be.

[Daemos]

I pretty much gave up on any SF game taking me back to the old games. It’s just a different time and I’m getting older. I’d rather approach SF5 like its own thing and keep an open mind (So far so good).

Capcom’s V-system is a good way to balance the adopted anime qualities with traditional “Street Fighter”, but there is so much more besides variable health, damage, stun values. They already opened a can of worms with V-skills. But they went beyond that a bit with some characters now having invincible dashes, poison, crawls, glides, tertiary resources (Juri/Ibuki). So what if some existing or future characters get air recoveries, backrolls, or even the dreaded invincible backdash etc. It’s all really just a natural extension of some early concepts first introduced in SF2, like Vega’s cage climbing, Sim’s limbs, Vega’s invincible backdash, or even how some characters had air throws and others did not.

This is SF5’s ‘parry’ or ‘Focus Attack’, V-System where ‘V’ could stand for any character. Ryu-System, Ken-System, Bison-System, or Ibuki-System. It’s quite liberating in a way, it’s hard to go back to the old ideas once this reaches its full potential. A little anime hurt nobody I think.

[Quark]

I think sims fireball is fucking awesome because it does what it’s supposed to do, which is clear the air vector and funnel people into his best in game ground attacks.

Given how slow Sim’s fireballs are and how many characters can quickly close horizontal space, the risk of throwing out a fireball in neutral is often not worth the reward IMO.

Sim already has plenty of air control from V-skill and great air-to-airs/AAs; it’s his ground game that is lacking. The arced fireballs are a bit of a disappointment to me for that reason (although I think Capcom was well aware of this, and made the change specifically to nerf Sim’s zoning capabilities.) There’s a reason they force you to spend meter for a horizontal fireball.

I disagree that Sim’s limbs are the best ground attacks in the game simply due to their range. They are slow and lacking in variety. s.MK and s.MP are the only relatively safe ground pokes against somebody slightly outside of cr.HP range, and they lose to most other character’s mid-range buttons. So he has quite a bit of a dead zone, too, at least as far as the ground game is concerned.

I will grant you that Sim’s closer normals are excellent, though. I thought I must have read the frame data wrong when I first saw that Sim’s cr.HP was +3 on block.

[Dime]

I will agree to disagree. The midrange beating I see sims giving leads to my conclusions not forum posts to the opposite.

But I’m not shitting on your opinion, I just disagree.

[Marmalade_Jones]

I agree with Quark. The arcing fireballs are too slow and they leave a huge deadzone. Lp.fire lands at about half screen distance away from Sim. I actually like his fireballs in V though, admittedly, they are inferior to his old horizontal fireballs. That’s why I think he should have kick variations of Yoga fire to cover the deadzone and to vary up speed and trajectory.

His ground game is quite lacking to his SFIV incarnation. No hori fireball and much worse far normals. They’re worse in startup frames, recovery frames, active frames, hit/hurtboxes, and variety.

[HNIC_Mike]

My character and player prediction skills are ridiculous.

Easily S tier.

I said Daigo would be good, but the style would take longer to develop. Now he puts up back to back Ws. Late in the year we’re eventually going to see a trickle down effect where the more patient players are going to have better results.

Ken players not playing momochi style will see a dip in performance pretty soon.

[Dime]

Try not to compare him to his sf4 counterpart. Then you have to compare Ryu to his, and chun to hers and bla bla. Every character has had their normals nerfed going from 4 to 5.

Having said that, I could beat dhalsim on 4, on 5 he just ruins me for free.

Means nothing in the grand scheme of things except that no one is really going to convince me that he’s bad in this version when he’s harder for me to beat and has way more mobility and actually lands combos and has mad range versus characters that have had their range nerfed.

He’s not as good as sf4 sim, sure. But no sf4 character is as good as their counterpart. It’s a different game and you have to evaluate the characters by the game they are in and who they compete against.

[DevilJin_01]

Sim just wouldn’t make sense to have horizontal fireballs in this game. The reason that he can play as he is is because he’s no longer a hori fireball character.

[Marmalade_Jones]

Try not to compare him to his sf4 counterpart. Then you have to compare Ryu to his, and chun to hers and bla bla. Every character has had their normals nerfed going from 4 to 5.

Having said that, I could beat dhalsim on 4, on 5 he just ruins me for free.

Means nothing in the grand scheme of things except that no one is really going to convince me that he’s bad in this version when he’s harder for me to beat and has way more mobility and actually lands combos and has mad range versus characters that have had their range nerfed.

He’s not as good as sf4 sim, sure. But no sf4 character is as good as their counterpart. It’s a different game and you have to evaluate the characters by the game they are in and who they compete against.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think he’s bad at all. I think he’s really good, despite his deficiencies. Pretty much everybody wants their favorite character to be as strong as possible or top tier. Sim being able to zone better with improved far normals and better fireball placement, would make him really good. That’s why I make the comparisons to SFIV Sim. It’s easy to quantify why his SFV far normals are lacking compared to SFIV.

Right now I think he has mostly 4-6 and 5-5 matchups, with one 6-4 MU against Gief and two 3-7 MU’s against Cammy and Mika.

[Dime]

Try not to compare him to his sf4 counterpart. Then you have to compare Ryu to his, and chun to hers and bla bla. Every character has had their normals nerfed going from 4 to 5.

Having said that, I could beat dhalsim on 4, on 5 he just ruins me for free.

Means nothing in the grand scheme of things except that no one is really going to convince me that he’s bad in this version when he’s harder for me to beat and has way more mobility and actually lands combos and has mad range versus characters that have had their range nerfed.

He’s not as good as sf4 sim, sure. But no sf4 character is as good as their counterpart. It’s a different game and you have to evaluate the characters by the game they are in and who they compete against.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think he’s bad at all. I think he’s really good, despite his deficiencies. Pretty much everybody wants their favorite character to be as strong as possible or top tier. Sim being able to zone better with improved far normals and better fireball placement, would make him really good. That’s why I make the comparisons to SFIV Sim. It’s easy to quantify why his SFV far normals are lacking compared to SFIV.

Right now I think he has mostly 4-6 and 5-5 matchups, with one 6-4 MU against Gief and two 3-7 MU’s against Cammy and Mika.

Thing about sf4 sim was I could actually block against him and I could throw fireballs against him. When I played ibuki all I needed was a read on his fireball or st.mk and I could ex neckbreaker that shit and get in for free.

This sim has v skill and teleport to not only deal with fireballs but deal massive damage to them. He’s just as good at AA as sf4 sim was and while his limbs have been toned down slightly, they are still very good and far ranged in a game where characters have less range than they did in sf4. He doesn’t have anything as dumb as sf4 sims st.lk that basically covered ground and air at the same time, but he still has very good moves.

His fireball accentuates that to me. Covers the air so that he can cover the ground, whether his limbs cover the ground as good as sf4 sim or not.

[DevilJin_01]

Yeah Dhalsim is basically a moving anti projectile with his new options now so he can’t also be covering that same projectile space. Allows him to counter other zoning games better while still being able to do so himself. The most important part is that it opens him up to be a much more relevant offensive character which he hasn’t really been since like ST or A3.

[JoeyTones]

3 top Chuns lost to 3 top Giefs this weekend. What do you guys think. Fluke, or is that matchup way more even than people initally made it out to be. They were all very close sets, except for Snake Eyez vs Ricki. That one was a blow up.

[Plaid_Unicorn]

3 top Chuns lost to 3 top Giefs this weekend. What do you guys think. Fluke, or is that matchup way more even than people initally made it out to be. They were all very close sets, except for Snake Eyez vs Ricki. That one was a blow up.

This weekend was a fluke in regards to that matchup. It’s straight hell for Gief. Prolly at worse 7-3 with most people having it at 6-4. So in regards to this game it’s pretty bad. @“DevilJin 01” hit the nail on the head earlier with analysis on the Ricki fight. She didn’t use her heavy buttons to keep the beast out. My guess is she was afraid to extend her hurtbox as snakes pretty much stopped pressing her when he got into position and made her make a choice. I need to watch the match again though.

Itibashi was on another planet this weekend though. He would have beaten every chun on the planet the way he was going early.

[amrraed]

3 top Chuns lost to 3 top Giefs this weekend. What do you guys think. Fluke, or is that matchup way more even than people initally made it out to be. They were all very close sets, except for Snake Eyez vs Ricki. That one was a blow up.

In the previous SF games, Zangief basically didn’t have answers to some of the stuff Chun was doing. In SF4 she could just spam st.HK and he will have a hell of a time getting past that, then he would have to deal with fireballs, VERY STRONG backdash and multiple other things.

In SF5 it is a different story.

You wanna IALL, Lariat is an answer.
You wanna spam st,HP or st.HK or whatever, V-skill SPD.
You wanna use your cute EX SBK as a reversal, Good luck eating crap ton of damage plus a setup afterwards.
You wanna anti-air me with your st.LK, I will jump MK and the trade will be in my favor.

Not saying it is an even matchup but Zangief has better answers to Chun in SF5 more than he ever did. That and just his raw stupid damage is enough to make 1 or 2 reads from him wipe 4 reads from Chun. It is a fun matchup to play.

[JoeyTones]

3 top Chuns lost to 3 top Giefs this weekend. What do you guys think. Fluke, or is that matchup way more even than people initally made it out to be. They were all very close sets, except for Snake Eyez vs Ricki. That one was a blow up.

This weekend was a fluke in regards to that matchup. It’s straight hell for Gief. Prolly at worse 7-3 with most people having it at 6-4. So in regards to this game it’s pretty bad. @“DevilJin 01” hit the nail on the head earlier with analysis on the Ricki fight. She didn’t use her heavy buttons to keep the beast out. My guess is she was afraid to extend her hurtbox as snakes pretty much stopped pressing her when he got into position and made her make a choice. I need to watch the match again though.

Itibashi was on another planet this weekend though. He would have beaten every chun on the planet the way he was going early.

I could see it being 6-4. But 7-3, nah. No way it’s as tough for Gief as Dhalsim is.

As for Itibashi killing it, sure. But he beat Human Bomb who BARELY lost to Daigo, so it’s not like HB wasn’t playing great too. Goes both ways.

[DevilJin_01]

3 top Chuns lost to 3 top Giefs this weekend. What do you guys think. Fluke, or is that matchup way more even than people initally made it out to be. They were all very close sets, except for Snake Eyez vs Ricki. That one was a blow up.

Matchup inexperience and Gief being stronger than people think.

[Plaid_Unicorn]

I don’t think Gief vs sim is that bad. Not as bad as Nash or chun personally.

What you said about Humanbomb just further proved my point. Itsbhashi was playing out of his mind, even though Humanbomb was playing great he kind of got steamrolled.

[JoeyTones]

I don’t think Gief vs sim is that bad. Not as bad as Nash or chun personally.

What you said about Humanbomb just further proved my point. Itsbhashi was playing out of his mind, even though Humanbomb was playing great he kind of got steamrolled.

wasnt it 3-2? But regardless, I don’t disagree. Itibashi did play out of his mind this weekend, and you play Gief so you would know what’s up. Was just curious what you guys thought.

[amrraed]

@“DevilJin 01” Exactly, also things can go horribly wrong against Gief extremely quickly.

You can replace Chun with almost any character after eating an EX SPD. It is like being in the Mika mixups, the matchup won’t matter at this point. You either have a reversal or you don’t and that is mostly about it in SF5.

I have always found hard to assign a number to a grappler matchup.

[Plaid_Unicorn]

I don’t think Gief vs sim is that bad. Not as bad as Nash or chun personally.

What you said about Humanbomb just further proved my point. Itsbhashi was playing out of his mind, even though Humanbomb was playing great he kind of got steamrolled.

wasnt it 3-2? But regardless, I don’t disagree. Itibashi did play out of his mind this weekend, and you play Gief so you would know what’s up. Was just curious what you guys thought.

You are right I was thinking of he Ken match where he just blew him out the building. My bad.