Umm, no, its a meaningless question to the discussion. If you want to start a ‘how much charge makes a charge character a turtle character!!!’ thread, feel free, but I probably wouldn’t take part in that either.
Same to you though, you seem desperately eager to pick a fight, too, even if it’s about… well nothing weirdly.
…So you are basically saying that as soon as we make all the moves and combos in a fighting games easy to perform, it magically turns into a card game where each turn is 1 minute rather than a split second, your possible actions are drawn randomly from a deck and there’s no aspect of positioning on the screen, or into Go, to address the other guy.
Yomi is based on some aspects of fighting game, but it’s a card game, not a fighting game. Nothing out there can replace the unique cerebral aspects of fighting games.
On the other hand, if you really like pressing buttons at strict timings, with no interactivity from an opponent involved (which is what happens during your usual combo) you can always play rhythm games…
[media=youtube]yJTqxev0rHQ[/media]
SWAG COMBOS!
Sirlin actually already address this claim before you even thought of making it. Pay attention when you read the things he wrote on this subject. He got everything covered.
Another dodge attempt.
I think execution is too relative but I’ll give it a shot. If these were real fights then strategy is pretty much knowing how fight. If you’re say…a wrestler, then you need to know how to position yourself for a take down or a hold. Execution would equate to actually being stronger, fast etc enough to do whatever it is you need to do. I think the scale should be 60/40 in favor of execution. Why? Fighting games are active so you’re constantly on the spot. Human error is a VERY big part of the genre. If you want pure strategy, play rpg’s. I love fighting games because they’re very human. People crack under pressure and fights become interesting.
“Everybody’s got a plan, til they get hit”-George Foreman
The fuck?
I’ve grown to appreciate that you can’t always do exactly what you want, when you want to in fighting games. Sometimes you have to compromise for a suboptimal option because the pace of the match makes execution more difficult than usual. I think this trait helps encourage aggressive play, which I enjoy.
I also like when players have the option to play characters that have simple moves/combos, or very challenging moves/combos. I rarely pick up very challenging characters, but I know enough execution junkies to know its important to give the players the option of that type of challenge.
I have a feeling the execution doesn’t matter crowd is just a bunch of depressed sports commentators sad that they can think and talk about the game but can’t actually play it. sorry, the fighting game genre is not a well chosen escape from your reality.
Both should be important.
For strategy alone there are strategy games.
For execution alone there are rythem/tony hawks/skate style games.
Fighting games fill that nice little niche where you get both at once mattering coupled with virtual fists connecting with faces and personally I don’t see anything wrong with that.
I’ve had a lot of experience introducing newbies to fighting games, after having watched them struggle to learn (sometimes succeeding, often giving up) I have found that by and large, fighting games are full of easy execution things. Things like pokes, throws, footsies, yomi, oki, mix-ups and many others require little more than a press of a button and a direction on the stick. Then you have special moves, which are a little bit harder but can be learned in a few minutes even for a complete beginner.
The difficulty comes from the fact that once a player lands a hit, the game changes into the world’s strictest rhythm game and sometimes if you are off by even 1/60th of a second your combo will drop and you get hit by a reversal uppercut.
‘execution doesn’t matter’, not sure who’s saying that (I suspect nobody).
The discussion is relative, not absolute.
And how is that?
I stopped reading after page 2… This is ridiculous people. The arguments presented seem short cited with few exceptions (the neutral perspective). heres my say on the matter. I think execution (ability to USE tools and mechanics) and strategy( ability to PLaN while adhere to in game rules) both have their place and what amount is feature only solidify a games self identity. For example lets compare the darkstalker revenge and vampire savoir games, both are nearly identical yet one has more emphasis on strategy while other with execution. Don’t get me wrong, both games fundamentally demand some level of execution and strategy. However both game are played differently. Vampire savoir becomes dexterity intensive game with it’s variety of options and fast pace scenario. Darkstalker revenge with its subtle pace and tactical importance compliments its mentally exhausting game of wits.
Because it’s obvious to everyone that some level of execution is required, if nothing else to differentiate moves… and beyond that to give people a sense of progress, people like to improve their skills.
In the same way, some level of decision is required because otherwise you’re blindly mashing.
The question is about the balance between the 2
I don’t know if you should take that for granted. I’ve met lots of people who wish they could just have some brain helmet that trivializes all commands.
Which is fine for you. Pick an easy character. That’s why games have a bunch of characters. Some people enjoy different things. There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with throwing in some characters with harder-than-strictly-necessary execution.
Again sticking with SF4 examples, the game has something like 40 characters. How many of them really come up in discussions about “hard” characters? 3 or 4? The game arguably has its own set of problems, but it’s hardly fair to look at Sakura or C.Viper or Gen as an example of why the entire game is “hard to play.”
high-five
Personally, there I times where I wished that the IV series allow you to buffer inputs for 2-3 frames post hit-confirm.
There is no fighting game devoid of execution. In order to have a discussion of Strategy vs. Execution, you’d need a situation where they were both completely separated from each other. There is no situation, because you have to press buttons in every game. So there is no way to truly have this discussion. Instead, you have to put execution into a specific context, and then discuss the value within that context.
That’s what I didn’t like about Sirlin’s article. He said Chen was misleading, and misrepresenting execution by isolating one factor, but you can’t take the whole of execution and discuss it’s value, because no matter how easy you make an input, there will be an execution barrier of some kind in high level match play when you make the transition from casual to skilled players. In Sirlin’s case, he’s discussing a specific threshold where he thinks execution is unnecessarily unforgiving, which is ironic, because that is also isolating an aspect of execution.
Yeah, I said that 
Nobody is claiming execution isn’t a factor at all.
Admit it, such technology would be rad. 
I’m trying to stay away from what I personally like and dislike entirely. Its probably not 100% possible of course
And I actually agree with one thing you said, all the games out there right now are actually really accessible, and don’t have many hard execution barriers (taken as a whole). All the developers are way ahead of this entire discussion
I will say this, if a character is made so that 1frame link (or whatever) is *actually required to be effective, *that character is poorly designed. It might still be fun, and people might enjoy it, but a designer fucked up somewhere.
It doesn't ruin the game either, but that's kind of a different thing :p Fighting games are pretty robust, all things considered and can handle a TON of bullshit.Well, I’m glad we agree on something.
I have two problems with the second statement:
1f is, funny enough, a fairly arbitrary line to draw. Why is a 1f link too hard, but a 2f link is okay? This might be be because I played a lot of Bemani games, but I don’t think anything that requires me to simply push a button within a frame or two is all that difficult. On the other hand, learning Ragna’s 22C loops in BBCS took me a ton of time, and that game is supposed to be easy. Likewise, getting consistent instant SJC burn kicks is way harder for me than any simple 1f link.
If a 1f link is okay as an emergent property, then it’s okay as an intentional design.
hell ya, but I’d rather use it to pilot it a jet Macross+ style than to play SF