Strategy wins games. Execution puts you on the map.
Anyone got any comments on Persona in regards to this discussion and the game’s take on execution?
Saying execution practice is just about consistency isn’t true at all though (although you note people using it to learn in the post so…)
I see the place we’re miscommunicating though, I’m talking about execution practice to increase skills, you’re talking about practice to maintain skill, at least if I understand you right. The thing is, if you’re at the point where you’re working to maintain the skill/consistency rather than to improve, aren’t you already pretty close to capped out already?
I’ve been focusing on improvement all along though, because as everyone has agreed repeatedly, all of these types of skill are necessary to play the game successfully. That part is a moot discussion, because everyone agrees.
So granting that execution, and in more technical games training mode work, are always necessary, I want to go back to the ‘diminishing returns’ bit.
Taking your own example, it seems a pretty clear difference in improvement between early in the game where that (arbitrary time) hour of practice takes you from ‘I can throw fireballs’ to ‘I can do d.mk>fireball’ to ‘I can hit a basic link’ and later where that same hour of work puts you from ‘I can hit this difficult, advanced combo 90% of the time’ to ‘I can hit this difficult, advanced combo 90.1% of the time’ or even ‘I didn’t go backwards to only hitting it 85% of the time’.
To repeat, it is absolutely necessary… but you’re not really improving much at that point.
On the other side, you see the really good players learning how to deal with something in decisionmaking/strategy within the course of a best-of-3 set. That's what that whole 'downloading' thing people like to talk about is, it seems like. You're *very quickly increasing your skill against a specific tactic and even a specific player*. That kind of improvement execution practice simply can't match if you're even remotely good.nah dude. it’s really just a difference in style.
some people like eurogames. some people like ameritrash.
eurogames are all clean and cleverly designed with simple, intuitive and 'deep’ish mechanics. deep in the sense that each decision has many clear consequences.
ameritrash games have cool models, lots of dice rolling, lots of tokens and cards and things. special abilities, things unique to each player’s army, character, etc
incongruous rules. huge rulebooks. etc. ‘deep’ in the sense that there are so many rules and stats you can learn about it forever.
people enjoy both. i play and own both kinds. i like me some shogun or race for the galaxy (eurogame) and i like me some supremacy and L5R(ridiculous ameritrash).
No matter how simple you make commands in the game, there would always be hard shit to do. All qcf motions and one buttons combos, but there is a lot of stuff in the game which requires execution. The only way someone can nail those is by practicing no matter how you’re gonna look at it. Sure you can do auto combos all day and many of them are pretty damaging, but that’s just to get your feet wet and everything else is up to the player. There’s a huge damage and resource difference in learning your own combos. If someone says, take out stuff like 1 more cancels that’s seriously just dumbing down the game, because not only it’s an execution thing but it plays into your offense (extends combos and help open up people) and defense (in case you are hitting their block) and the only way for a new player to utilize them (short of playing the game for them) is just practicing. Even if you made something like that 1 button, people still need to practice it, I guarantee you. People drop shit in Dungeon Fighter and everything in that game is 1 button.
That being said, there’s a lot of crafty things you can do with your persona, so it helps if people are playing smart. A balance of both is the best, since there’s so many options to play how you feel like.
My strategy is to have good execution lol. If you got good execution to punish a situation that arises and get the most damage out of it, who wouldn’t want to? I always go for extra damage even if I know I could drop it. The only thing that should fall under the word drop is drop the excuses and work on your shit.
That worked out great in Diablo 3.
I don’t want execution grinding to be ‘my shit’, that’s the point.
‘Grinding’ execution for all the main games doesn’t even take that fucking long. 1 hour in training mode, twice a week, and you should be fine with whatever bnb combos your characters use. Getting used to various hitconfirms and hitting the combos in matches will be the hardest part, but that happens by just playing more casuals after you’ve done your two hours of getting used to the combo. No one’s forcing you to play Viper and do 17 rapid seismos into a Doom TAC infinite, the hard stuff in these games isn’t anywhere near as crucial as the shit Viscant’s talking about in mvc2.
Just sit down for about an hour, and if you don’t want high execution, don’t pick those characters. Simple. I don’t know why this argument’s still going on when everything xes is asking for in terms of barriers has already been toned down. There is no post-sf4 game that requires you to have high execution, just good hitconfirms, and some good combos down. If you want to, you can go up, and play Viper and rapid seismo, or pick characters with a HD combo that’s slightly harder than just doing K’ dp into qcb.k over and over. But you don’t have to. I really don’t know what more you could want.
grinding execution and acquiring game knowledge happen at the same time, I don’t see a need to separate them
execution doesn’t sit in a vacuum. execution informs your understanding of the game’s mechanics and why things work the way they do. why did I drop that combo? how did I accidentally do that? can I apply that here also? oh cool charge partitioning. let me figure this shit out.
I dunno about anyone else but for me training mode is not just grinding shit. a session starts with working my fundamentals but then leads to discovering something and fooling around with that for an hour. and I end up a better player in the end. if you love a game you should love training mode because it gives you opportunities to understand things that might not be obvious just playing matches. and if you hate sitting there doing that you should find a new game to play that you enjoy more, because it should be enjoyable.
The trick is, that only really works when a game is new.
As time goes on there’s less and less to discover, and it becomes more related to luck than to insight actually finding things. It becomes more and more about learning to utilize something someone else figured out, and gaining/maintaining the ability to do things.
Just about everybody loves the rush of discovery when a new game comes out, and when you can find things yourself... still, go try to find some new trick or insight for MvC2.
That's why I really don't like talking about games fostering creativity... it's great while it lasts, but it never lasts.Holy shit, I cannot fucking, just, fuckign wow
^popping sound
[media=youtube]VuPQo2DeFyQ[/media]
thanks for proving yourself wrong by listing mvc2
you can’t just say it, tell me a truly new discovery that you’ve made recently in MvC2.
Hell, take a week and get back to me.
Xes let me quote a few japanese designers and producers.
“Fuck off”
…No. Just no.
MVC2 has so much replay value because of the depth of the gameplay system and the large cast. You can find new shit or things to experiment when a game gives the player of a lot of options. All I can say to people who think there isn’t anything left to find in MVC2 should go watch this channel.
.
Training room does ZERO harm to FG, they give insane amount of replay value more than Gems/Story Mode/and other shit that game reviewers want out of FGS that would be half assed beyond belief.
See that’s the problem. Playing other people provides real replay value. People are so used to playing alone 90% of the time that they’ve forgotten that.
About the combo, it took me about 20 seconds to find a fullscreen version of that combo from ‘years ago’ (the quote from the video).
I’d go to the same challenge though,** what** have you found?
PS: I was gonna save it for if somebody actually found something, but I'll put it out now: "... and is it just a worse option or version than something that already exists?"Now you’re just blatantly trolling. Just report and move on folks.