Concerning training mode, I think it’s a very beneficial tool. “Grinding” combos and setups are also VERY beneficial. A top player like Fanatiq understands the importance of training mode and the rewards that it gives you.
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[media=youtube]xzgjCqtZJZY[/media]!
*“Once I got back into training mode, I went to the next WNF and I went undefeated. Training mode, you NEED to practice, and then the timing and all that stuff is second nature. You don’t drop combos when you’ve practiced at it long enough.” *― Fanatiq
this is just a prime example of artificial barriers. Why should you have to practice in training mode to win a tournament? NO ONE wants to do that shit!!! its stopping scrubs\casuals from playing the games when you tell them they have to practice!
all you’re doing is alienating players by making them practice. Don’t you guys know how scrubs think?
the people who bitch about execution are never tournament players and the people who say execution\strategy is more important than the other really don’t have the slightest clue as to what they’re talking about. Only people who play 1 fighting game will say 1 is more important the other because every game will dictate towards 1 direction. When you start playing them all @ a tournament level, you start to understand that strategy\execution are both equally important @ high level if you want to win even though 1 may be favored over the other in your game.
1st thing, SFIV isn’t any different, it has a bunch of input shortcuts which seem to do nothing but piss people off who do have good execution. Secondly, you make it sound like fighting games are all execution and nothing else. Most high level players can execute pretty much whatever they want, whenever they want, are they at the ‘end’ of fighting game skill progression purely because of that? Of course not, there’s a lifetime of depth in fighting games beyond just execution, depth a high percentage of players won’t even begin to have access to and for what purpose? You make fighting games sound *proper *dumb, like, Guitar Hero levels of dumb.
Why would being able to execute what they wanted make them a pro?? And also, how many different ways/times do people need to spell it out that this isn’t what people are getting at? All games revolve around the fundamental principal that the more work and effort you put in, the better you are. I don’t think anyone is suggesting this should change. What (some) people want is the option to put time/work/effort into the aspects of fighting games they enjoy more, in this case, learning matchups, trying setups on opponents, practising footsies, devising clever oki etc. etc. I have a couple of hours to play some SFxT tonight, I want to play a guy on my friend’s lists Julia to try and learn to defend against her strings and mixups better. So because I want to spend those hours doing that and not grind execution in training mode (which will probably benefit me more) I’m easy-mode scrub material?
I’m guessing because SFIV is such easy mode and you learnt every Ryu combo, you’re at the absolute top of the game, right?
tldr; Time and effort *should *reward you with better performance yet sinking huge amounts of time into something shouldn’t be a pre-requisite to play a game in the way it was intended. A good game should offer the same core elements to players of all skill levels.
NO it’s not that you shouldn’t be playing those characters, it that you shouldn’t play them at a HIGH LEVEL until you do and if you are you should be learning other aspects of the characters nuetral game and combos. I’ve played and talked about GG with some of the best in America specifically about these two characters, because while I have no interest in playing them some friends do and they’ve told me that while yes those aspects of the characters are SUPER important they can wait until you get everythin g else down pat and while you’re playing them, even in match you can practice it and take that knowledge you gained to learn how to do it better.
The fucking problem with Xes and Rules is that you two idiots seem to think that you have to know EVERY SINGLE THING and know how to do EVERY SINGLE thing your character can do before you start playing tournaments. Yeah you should be constantly working to getting everything down for your character but until then grind out the simpler yet still important things first before really focusing on the EWGF, or the FRCs, or the ROMs.
And fuck to the shit about how people have to choose one game because execution is so high it has and always will be bullshit, I mean yeah you should probably have two main games but BUT you can still work at getting decent at a wide vareity of games, nothing is stopping you and it won’t hurt you. Damn everyone wants to be Godlike from jump street.
And you can’t do this now because?
And that was ever implied when?
Welcome to every game that has ever lived for a decent amount of time in the FGC and those that haven’t.
Seriously this shit is getting out of hand. The underlying problem is that most of you are approaching this from a competitive player’s perspective. Invariably most competitive games (be it video, board or sports) require a large investment of game time or practice to learn all the different strategies and techniques. Go and Chess require a large amount of studying to get to the meat of it.
So either shift this to a “how much should a brand new person be able to do in a game” or GTFO. This thread is getting dumb.
“Because of the tag system, and the combo damage being too high. In my opinion it has now become easier for weaker players to overcome experts than on Tekken 6 BR”
Having a game look and play different at different levels is actually probably the intention of a lot of game designers. There is nothing wrong with that.
Ever talked to someone whose been through Medical School? Memorizing stuff does not go away after you are a kid. Sure memorization leads to rewards but the process is not fun, what I bring up in my essay is the amount of time spent in training mode. If you have to spend days worth of time just to perform a certain combo I wonder if it wouldn’t just be more fun to be actually, you know, playing against people.
Kids back in the day ate them up because that was all there was and the means of communication because between players and game makers was harder to achieve. Also, these companies used to make Arcade Games, where the goal was to get you to put quarters into the machine. The more you have to “train” to learn a combo, the more money you are spending. They would love people spending time memorizing something on a pay to play system.
I not sure what you mean by the last sentence here. Could you explain that more?
I think it’s pretty obvious that new players should only be able to do the basics. Stuff like specials, supers or a simple air combo. You work your way up to the harder stuff, which usually has better benefits (ie - more damage).
I was saying that in school you don’t enjoy or see the point in memorization, especially as a kid. I never said that memorization goes away after high school or something.
There are games and characters where that is not a neccesity.
Fact is that people loved those games. Even today people think back on that era of gaming with joy.
i wish i could like mind games post x 2 i had a good laugh not to mention hes absolutely right about just accepting the game
adaptation… cant decide what i value more between that and improvisation
alex valle always talked about how footsies involve having guts and that must involve having the guts to do something out of the box in a high end situation no matter how the rhythm/tempo of the match is playing out
I was referring to needing frame perfect inputs to play the game as per the frame data, eg. to actually punish a move which is -3 on block with a 3f jab.
I totally agree that the higher damage combos should be off limits to beginners but I think even the basic fundamentals of the game are off limits to beginners.
I really don’t agree that designers want their games to play fundamentally different at different levels. And by different I mean, complete shit at the bottom and as intended at the top.
again, you’re assuming that only the top players play the game “as intended.” The game can take many forms, every form as intended to be played by players at different levels.
About “shit” at lower levels, a lot of casual players find high level play shitty and boring and would rather just press buttons.
The most common approach is to design with allowances for discovery, but not to make a game for high investment players hiding in a game for beginning players.
My favorite part about this thread is where we forgot that learning combos is the low level stuff and learning match ups and techniques is the high level stuff. This also invariably applies to every other game.
Once again, this thread should really be about the requirement a beginner should have to make to have access to tools. Because if you have a game in which a beginner can beat somebody is an experienced player, your game is shit.