Strategy vs Execution: Where do you stand?

Specific point: About when the more versus games came out, and T2 for PSX being so good. I could make an argument that T2/3 were the real start of the lab culture. Gameswise though, it was really versus games.

Hell, I did it too, I remember how cool I thought I was when I figured out the old sabretooth combo>launch>combo>airthrow>super (and that the stupid police van made it quit working). It’s pitiful by modern standards, sure, but it was a big deal at the time, and I (amongh many others independently) discovered it through practicemoding.

Grinding:

Still, not every kind of practice is ‘grinding’. And learning how to do your basic specials isn’t that onerous as compared to a lot of other things I could name. In the very very beginning, I was one of those guys that had trouble doing dragon punches (it didn’t help that we had the input wrong, but still). It was easy enough to work around, and didn’t really take all that much work anyways, once I decided to actually start playing shotos. In general this is the same thing I’ve been saying, everything is on a sliding scale. Naturally some muscle-memory type work is necessary always, but there are degrees.

You simply can’t count all levels of practice as if they’re the same amount of work.

 
In honesty this should probably be split into 2 seperate discussions.
 
Execution barriers and accessibility: This fight we've already won, the devs are going out of their way to make accessible games already
 
Practicemode heros: This is about combo systems, and is a lot trickier. It is execution, but isn't necessarily about barriers. It's also a long ways from won, everyone loves their cheap flash.
 
Edit: oh yeah also, saying anybody is posting "Execution is dumb and we don't want it" is a massive stretch to say the least.  That's the fake argument you guys want to keep trying to go after, probably because its easier to win.

There are definitely people who say that, whether that’s what they actually mean or not, and then someone says that’s fucking stupid, as they rightfully should, and then someone smart like specs has to reasonably call someone out because he sees a post where shoultz is going off on somebody about how fucking awesome execution is, which it is, for some subgroup, and then everyone is arguing with each other about shit some third party, and none of the people actually arguing about it, actually said, and multiple people on each side are all arguing their own personal interpretations of some other person’s thought, and that’s fucking impossible to follow which is why we boil it down to sides, which then inevitably contain contradictions, and then I read a post by xes and tell him his position is dumb as fuck because of something Illthuain said about one of tataki’s posts, which is why it’s impossible to discuss anything seriously or complex on an open forum on the internet.

Re T2, I learned that game on the home port, but mostly because it let me play a thousand games every day for free, not so much because I could grind practice mode. So I dunno.

Why does this offend you? I don’t get why it bothers some people that I want to spend the time to learn fancy combos.
“Strategy is more important so make the execution easier” isn’t a better argument; that’s the straw man argument here.

Seriously, this is the best post I’ve read in this “discussion”.

evo 2013: only one game where there’s one button. after the “FIGHT!” screen starts, the first person to hit the button wins. only the truest warriors will win.

GET HYPE

Yes, because that’s exactly analogous to the dumb generalization you made. Sure.

this would take into account that everybody has a great community and or that everybody is overly frustrated with being in the lab for a period of time.

Yeah totally, but it also made practice mode both available and applicable to the arcade.

I sure as hell learned stuff at home and then applied it out in the world, it was probably the first time I did that.

I kind of believe that’s why people care so much about the execution thing in the first place. It’s the generation that ‘grew up’ (so to speak) during the period when it really was mega-hard to get a good match, between arcades being gone, online just about not existing, and relatively few people playing fighters anyways. So they matured in the genre with a lot of practice time, largely from a lack of other options. Then its’ the way it should be (just like the way it should be for me is more like 1993)

who the fuck said execution barriers deemphasize practice with others? that is something you just throw out there. is mvc2 any less versus mode friendly than sf2 is?

You can still sit in versus mode and beat someones ass just like you could 20 years ago on a sf2 cab. That part has NOT changed. Training\practice mode is there for players who want to take it to another level of play against competition. If anything, being able to train in practice mode emphasizes play against others. You’re training to beat your competitoin, you want to play them again once you’ve leveled up. Beating your competition into the ground is the whole point of training\practice mode. It doesn’t do the opposite and make someone just sit there all day…

“that’s always what it should be” is an opinion an no where close to a fact. I’m giving factual things that contribute to the depth of an engine through execution. You’re giving me your shitty opinion and guess what, it still sounds like the " I don’t want to practice execution" argument in disguise.

I don’t think those words mean what you think they mean. Insert something here about how my being a copywriter somehow makes my use of words “better.” Lament the fact you still won’t pick up on it.

I can understand both sides with a nod to the current generation since thats esentially what we live in.
i liked the arcades as someone who used to thrive with soul edge and tekken i think while that era was good and allowed alot of interaction (and alot of lost quarters) i think being in the lab sometimes is a good thing. like shoultzula said you are anxious to show your execution to the competition and also being in the lab allows you to develop your own style.
sometimes (and it was annoying) you have that one guy in the arcade that massacres everyone. and while you got to see how he played i think it was daigo that said that its good to have your own style. sometimes in the arcade you end up trying to master the person your playing against instead of mastering the game.
Im probably going off kilter but a bit of seclusion/labtime is good, especially if your local comp is exponentially better then you and you wish to close the gap. Of course i spend my time in the lab not only looking for combos but analyzing every move/poke to help me visualize a multitude of situations i could apply the move.
getting comfortable with your main or character is something i feel is very important and the lab allows for a much better vantage point of doing that.

but your right i do feel sometimes (mostly when i play mvc3) that im just going through the motions… which is my personal cue to get the fuck out and do something else

Practice mode being required to be effective is a barrier. That’s the whole point of the discussion. Somebody that can do the basic stuff but can’t do their advanced combos can jump right into SF2 or 3 or 4 and play right away. Sure they probably won’t win, but they’ll be able to fight, and have some semblance of effective play. Can you really say that for MvC2 or 3 or Blazblue? (rhetorical question, no you can’t) You have to cross that practice mode barrier to play, and it doesn’t have to be that way.

 
See that's the thing for me.  I've done it all, I've been everywhere.  I've ground out tight execution, I've done lab time to figure out new things when that meant something, I've played WW in the arcade and gotten into fights over who actually put that quarter up and whose turn it is, I've gone to weeklies and majors and played the best people around.
 
And that's what I think its about... perspective.  Not fan thinking or specific loyalty, but looking at fighting games as a whole.  A game loyalist, the guy that loves MvC2 or Vampire Savior, is going to think the best possible game is just like MvC2 or Vampire.  Same way, a ST fan is going to think the best game design would be exactly like ST... we need to get beyond that or there's no point in even having the conversation.

no no no no no no no no no we just talked about this

you:

You definitely have to learn combos to win BlazBlue, so that’s kind of an execution barrier.

But for the most part none of them are combos you couldn’t pick up just by watching someone play and playing games with them, i.e., “not grinding.” Anyway, like, not the same kind of barrier.

It annoys the fuck out of me that you always post these things like you obviously have way more experience than everybody else because you’re old or whatever, and also totally way less biased for specific games because uh, well actually I don’t know bu you do come off that way a lot. Like you believe that you have less bias, not that you actually have less, that is.

some random thoughts from myself:

grinding to me… in my own definition i define as practice (that i DONT want to do) whereas practice… is grinding that i DO want to do… an example or 2:

i hate grinding levels in RPG’s, especially the oldschool ones… it bored me to tears… my friend however LOVED it. i d like practicing/grinding in training mode for fighting games… my friend however hated it. two different best friends that both play the same types of games with 2 different takes on them. neither one of us is right, its differing opinions.

for instance not all t-mode for me is fun… i find it VERY unfun to practice sf4 okizeme set plays in t-mode, yet i find it VERY fun to practice link combos and superjump ultra cancels… and… im better at those things i like to practice… of course.

this is also why i only play characters THAT I LIKE. i cant play characters that i dont like cause t-moding anything is a chore/boring/grind.

my point being that IF YOU DONT LIKE PRACTICING IN T-MODE AT ALL… then maybe fighting games arent for you… or maybe having high execution isnt for you, but trying to change fighting games isnt the way to go about it.

and also, “grinding” in t-mode can also be seen as a competition… its my t-mode practice time versus my opponents when we play… who practiced better? who practiced more? who practiced things more conducive to winning? whos theory fighter setups are better?

that all comes in to play when taking your “leveled up self” against other human competition the same way it does when playing pvp’s in games like WOW… only in wow you level up a character as wel as yourself and in fighting games you only level yourself up.

tldr… it isnt grinding if you enjoy it.

-dime

Not sure about that. I did not play Blazblue or MvC2 (or MvC3 for that matter) but after explaining the MvC3 basics to my FPS (UT/BFBC) playing roommate, he was able to jump right in. LMHS > air combo etc… Funny thing is the dude thinks FGs are crap but he was having a blast.

Viache: For me thats what it comes down to.

We all think we’re the one that’s right and everyone else is secretly stupid. For me it’s the position of advocacy. Folks saying what they personally like and what they’re used to is what’s GOOD.

I carry on about breadth of experience to try to emphasize it’s not about loyalty. If you’ve done it both ways, and enjoyed both ways, certainly that gives you a certain perspective about the subject as compared to the fan.

Not that I actually think everyone that disagrees with me is a stupid fanboy of course, but there are certainly some, and in all honesty the whole conversation seems frighteningly myopic sometimes.

Before somebody decides to come at me with some quote for Sirlin, let us remember that he is trying to design for everybody. His goals are to produce products which are as inclusive as possible. This is a noble goal but it misses sometimes how the real world works. There are many fans of his that can admit to Sirlin having both bad execution and poor strategy when dealing with other game makers (mustard table stage is a straight counter pick). As such what Sirlin offers is a really good guideline for most games. When discussing execution we can only deal with finished products. Regardless of how he feels about them different philosophies went into different games. Some of the design philosophies lead to harder executional game out of necessity rather than a want out of the producers themselves.

So let’s kill point number one: these games require you to physically do things. Invariably all fighting games have this barrier between what you want to do and what you are able to do. We can argue all day on whether or not this is a good design for a game. But the intrinsic problem with the argument is that it doesn’t matter how much a designer tries to avoid its players from having these issues, our abilities create the differences. Not all of us bring the same set of skills into combat (much like in a real fight) and these differences matter (much like in a real fight). Therefore as much as the law makes us equal, the cruelty of biology forces inequality in our physical and mental abilities.

Now that we understand that we come into these games with an inherent physical inequality (which can be mitigated but even amongst high level musicians there are executional differences) the question becomes how much should a player need to succeed? These vary depending on the types of players in a game. If it is low level, they may enjoy the game without needing much. If its mid level, he may need to input device harder to get more out of his character. At a high level it will vary between game (but at this level the player should work to lessening the impact on his play). While a designer may have all of these in mind, he is usually going to target some group depending on what he wants to achieve.

The previous paragraph is somewhat vague, so I will use Guilty Gear as an example. It started fairly simple and then become known (possibly as a dirty rumor) that the game is hard to play execution wise. The real issue with Guilty Gear being hard is the use of Roman Cancels and False Roman Cancels. For those who don’t know, a Roman Cancel (RC) is a cancel which can be performed at any time by hitting three of the attack buttons (sans D) as soon as the move connects; this move uses 50% of your meter. A False Roman Cancel (FRC) is similar to an RC except it can only be used during certain moves, during certain frames of the move; this uses 25% of your meter. RCs are equal for everybody. FRCs get trickier because they open up additional space for the each character. The question now becomes: how would you fix FRCs to be more accessible? The “D” button is not used for RCs in the first place, so maybe one button plus the use of the “D” button would be appropriate.
But in the case of the game, the want to let characters do very specific things with the meter. This is where it gets complicated because the limits to these are not arbitrarily chosen; but it will invariably exclude some people from easily doing it. The character Dizzy can throw an ice spike on the floor (this move is capable of being FRCed). If I FRC this successfully, I get extra frame advantage on hit and can do additional combos; if I miss and get an RC, I can still make the move safe but may not get the combo follow up. There is a very big distinction between keeping a move safe and getting additional frame advantage with a specific time frame. This is the part where we argue about the need for two different types of cancel in the first place. But looking at the game, the implication seems to be the creation of an all around cancel and also have a second one which give the characters more things to work with.

As such design space can create these barriers just by exploring it. In the face of FRCs, the input window is what dictates what they let the characters do. While they can create further technology to make this easier do, the act of putting limitations on the what characters can do creates the execution barrier. FADCs are very similar to roman cancel but with a somewhat loser input window but a harder motion. It is also completely possible to miss that buffer window or input it incorrectly. Sirlin was critical of the motion for FADCs. But the reality is that dashing forward or back works to limit the things which the characters can do. There are more examples of exploring design space by adding motions to it but I won’t go into those (see super jump cancelling).

We know that there are differences between us that create executional differences, we have looked at a couple of examples which show that these may not be arbitrary. The next question is a hard one because NAMCO is head over heels over this stuff: making motions different to help balance. Should this exist? If you’ve played the 3DS version of SSF4 then you know the answer: yes. Guile walking forward while doing Sonic Booms and constantly having charge for flash kick is one of the most unintentionally stupid/funny things in any fighting game. For better or worse Ono answered the question with that game (although it should be mentioned that the one-button moves were not balanced accordingly).

NAMCO is the biggest oddball when it comes to executional requirements because they love them just frames. In T6 Mishimas (Heihachi, Kazuya, Jin) have a move that when performed under the proper condition grants them extra benefits (namely frame advantage and damage). This is where the argument of strategy versus execution begins to get problematic because people with execution have a clear advantage over those who do not. People with good execution have access to better punishes, more or better versions of set ups, and additional movement options with their character. In the realm of decision making the people with execution have more options from which to choose. They do not necessarily have access to better decision making. A couple of examples for your considerations: Marlin Pie can’t block and Dieminion can. Marlin Pie has insanely good execution; but hard to do is hard to do. Marlin Pie has insanely bad defense. While he has some great set ups with Viper in MvC3, he has (or had since his defense has gotten significantly better) a penchant for touching buttons. Its almost like he can’t help himself. Even though he could kill people if he touched them, he would make some very poor decisions which would cost him matches. Dieminion is almost the polar opposite because he wins almost entirely on strategy (although he does have good execution). I love watching Dieminion play because it is the lamest, most meticulous thing happening in AE12. Guile is somewhat limited in the ways he can punish people’s mistake. Although Dieminion in MvC3 is a whole different beast because his team isn’t exactly all that great (although he plays it well) and he sometimes misses combos or just can’t convert. So while he has a set strategy in the game, he can’t execute it to its fullest at time. Dieminion in MvC3 shoes that tangled relationship that strategy vs having the execution to do said strategy creates in fighting games. Marlin Pie has all the execution in the world but sometimes his strategic decisions fall short.

Revisiting the just frame we get into some issues when dealing with the general population. Like all gamer communities, fighting game players have a variety of voices directly and indirectly demanding things. The truth is that the major companies will try and cater to as many people as possible. Sometimes it works, other times it just ruins the overall experience. Take Kazuya versus C.Viper. I can play Kazuya almost with no problem without having to do that just frame move. The rest of the moves are easy to do and I only miss out on some pressure two and some crazy max punishes. But for the most part Kazuya’s gameplay does not require you to do that move constantly. C.Viper on the other hand is a broken character. Unless you can do a lot of the cancels, you really shouldn’t bother touching her. The majority of her high level play focuses on doing motions which are not required from the rest of the cast. The worse thing about Viper is that for the majority of players, she just might as well not be there. In the time I can grind some of her basic things, I can grind about 10 other characters and get my start with those. This is bad. Some compare her to a Guilty Gear character but the reality is that in Guilty Gear you have those characters inside a frame under which these things make sense.

The hardest part about Viper is the one thing that Sirlin kinda misses about the variety of game: not all of them are designed for everybody. I have insanely bad execution. I know that when I look at Fate/Stay Night Unlimited Codes, that game was just not made for me. To some extent you could argue that Guilty Gear was not made for me either. Viper is a little bit more pervasive because she was included in a game marketed towards beginners. But let’s face it, there is a place for game that requires you to tiger knee your normals because there is a small niche market for them. Much of the fighting comes from people who can’t reconcile the fact that some games weren’t meant for their hands. If you look at the place where these games are released, you’d understand why the executional requirements are up there: most of their target audience has already spent thousands of hours working their hands into something fanciful. When you release a hard executional game into that environment, is not a big a deal as releasing it into one where people aren’t used to constant hard motions. Similarly these games push gamers to higher level. Some people like sky diving, others like making a stick sound like a type writer. Wanting to argue away the fun these people have with their games is silly those experiences are important explorations into the genre. Ono’s one button moves as well as Guilty Gear’s RC and FRC give us details about the nature of design and questions about the limits of human ability. Games benefit from being unequal because this way they are able to hook people into the genre as a whole with different things.

So the harsh truths of this debate is that you need execution of some kind to enter the game, you need to create strategy to put yourself in a winning position and then you go back to execution to fulfill that strategy. In a good 90% of games playing smart creates the opening to hit buttons (although MvC3 lets you hit more buttons than most games for ridiculous decisions made in the game but you still shouldn’t be hitting buttons). Not all games are for you; accept the game and push yourself or go find something more comfortable (I do both of these depending). Developers shouldn’t really take a giant dump on some games for shits and giggles (Fuck a Viper, all this does is make sure that people don’t’ get to learn the match up).

TL; DR:
1)They are games which require mechanical inputs.
2) In some cases, the motions do help balance the moves.
3) The person with the better execution (regardless of the game) has the most options.
4) Having control over a majority of options does not mean making the best decisions.
5) Sirlin’s point of view will always be to make the games as accessible as possible to facilitate the enjoyment of as many people as possible and to increase the importance of decision making.
6) Not all fighting games are designed for everybody.
7) As players our job we can only play; we may have the power to edit but what gets played competitively is the official product.
8) Viper is the thing we should avoid; making characters unique little flowers that are significantly hard to execute than what is baselined from the rest of the cast makes it so that it gets touched less and fewer people have access to learning the match up. Just stick the character in a game full of characters similar to it.

P.S. stop arguing over this shit. Unless you want to make a game, there is absolutely nothing to be gained from it. Nothing.

My view on Sirlin is that he’s a good game designer in general, and that trumps the FG stuff to some degree (they’re not really that different)

His… personality issues are a big factor in any discussion though, it’s hard to get through his nuttiness and hostility to get to seeing if he has a point or not.

Edit: Add in the required ‘nobody is requiring you to click on and read the thread if you don’t like it’ response. Just pretend its not here and let us argue, anybody in here at this point is enjoying it.

Yipes also has excellent strategy. He has a nice, flowing style of play where every setup leads to more setups and resets. In the past few years MVC2 has been played out to where everyone knows how to do ROM infinites, snap-back infinites, and do canned setups with MSP (I can do them all, and I don’t even play Mags in that game!). And yet Yipes does better than other players who can execute the same combos and resets. The difference-maker is strategy. Yipes just makes better decisions.

I already said that Yipes has excellent strategy. Marlinpie’s strategy is worse (kill in one touch, less emphasis on defense) but for a game like MVC3 it’s workable. Note, however, that Marlinpie’s defense has improved by leaps and bounds in recent months. Proof positive that even the player with the best execution recognizes that one-touch-kills will only get you so far. By contrast, the most notable strategy player (Viscant) has felt no pressure to change his playstyle to a more execution-heavy one.

To the contrary, I always state the reasoning behind my assertions and link back to relevant quotes or sources when applicable. The fact that you lack the reading comprehension to realize this is your problem, not mine.

you are fine in having that view. but i disagree. i dont think hes a good game designer at all and i hated pretty much all of his rebalance “efforts” in HDR.

that doesnt mean that he is a bad designer, just that i and many others dont think he is. my biggest problem with him is his staunch stance that he IS CORRECT.
i mean this guy put that version of akuma in the game and called akuma “balanced”… fucking LOL. he also made moves that have no business being easier… easier… chicken wing isnt supposed to be easy to execute. SPD isnt supposed to be able to be done empty without jumpin forward or backward if you dont cancel the jump frames into it or do something that plants gief on the ground… like a jab or something. T-hawk probably shouldnt have that stupid new hawk dive, ryus fake hadoken looks like mugen shit… etc etc the list goes on and on.

plus he seems to think that “yomi” and mixups are what all fighting games should be about, but gives little to no preferential treatment to spacing and its ramifications…

i agree with everything that sirlin has said… TO A POINT… but his philosophy is kinda like a taking a slice of pie and saying that that slice of pie is the best and that the rest of the pie is garbage… street fighter is only yomi and only mixups and be damned to everything else… he wants streetfighter to be a fucking card game, basically

/end rant

-dime

Sirlin disputes are old hat, but I’d point to the other projects he’s done that’s more what I was thinking of rather than HDR.

Beyond that what you’re saying is kind of what I’m saying. Dude is mostly right, just he presents really… aggressively (and I’m not one to talk about that necessarily :p)