mothman episode was dope as shit
I “got it” a long time ago, thanks. I was clarifying your position, because people often use the same words to mean different things. Earlier you said:
(emphasis mine) This implies that one could make a fighting game without artificial barriers, which is, then, a contradiction. Unless you changed your mind?
Your bullet points are mostly a matter of opinion. Different games test different skills, and different people like different tests. It’s a matter of taste, not objective value.
Well, obviously that depends on our definition of ‘artificial.’
Well, see, we fundamentally disagree. I like that some things are hard to do and that people get rewarded for being able to do them. That’s part of the fun, both in watching and playing. But that’s why there are different games.
I still think that your distinction between intentional and incidental execution is problematic. You didn’t respond to this earlier:
There’s a couple different levels of execution and their applications that are being tossed around here. At the highest level of play, the mere fact that moves are certain motions matters a great deal (charge moves, SPD, 720 being the biggest examples). That’s an interesting gameplay dynamic that would be very difficult to balance without that execution requirement. It’s possible in theory, but no game has tried to do it yet.
At mid to high levels of play (depending on the game), there’s the requirement to perform combos. This is grinding out combos and stuff. This is where most players would probably drop games before really getting to high levels of play. At this level, it’s best to create a system where a game has easily performed combos that the players feel are “adequate.” The simple example of this are the magic series air combos in MvC2 and MvC3. For many of the top-tier characters, a simple ground chain->launcher->air combo-> finisher isn’t the best combo in 90% of situations, but it still feels like something is being done. For many games, the combos and execution requirements that develop over the course of the game are emergent, and there’s no real way to make them easier beyond things like the frame-buffer in Blazblue as previously mentioned.
The problem at this level is making sure that players always feel rewarded for putting effort into the game. Why put so much effort into learning advanced combos with Strider when Wesker can get away with just doing basic combos and winning anyway? This is where the inevitable execution vs. strategy problem comes up. Strategy would be landing the first hit of the combo. Execution would be doing the entire combo. What’s the good balance? I think UMvC3 was on the right track in general with their combos, it was just implemented poorly (X-Factor being the culprit here).
At low levels of play, it’s a matter of simply doing basic things like links, cancels, or even basic motions. Some games are trying to ease up on these requirements. GG has no 360 motions, BB has no charge motions beyond a couple gimmicky ones that Taokaka has (AFAIK), Melty Blood has neither, and P4A has pretty much only QCF motions, with one character having charge motions and (what appears to be) a mostly useless move on 222 for all characters.
One of the issues is that for many newer players, simply doing a special move isn’t an interesting piece of execution training. However, it is a necessary part of execution training in order to be able to do longer combos consistently. And many moves can’t simply be made easier without affecting their application, which is what James Chen was getting at in his original article. However, a lot of people just getting into fighting games or playing the games casually simply don’t care about those applications because they’re not at the level where they care about mid range footsies against Fei-Long and whether or not he can do his flame kick. This definitely affects mainstream perception of fighting games, which affects total sales, which affects the money that’s available to be put into future games, which affects the quality of said future games.
Personally, I believe that the future in fighting games is headed towards the kind of execution in P4A, even if the aesthetics of that game don’t lend itself to the same kind of American audience that SF would. Simpler motions overall and a simple placeholder combo for people who haven’t hit training mode. I’m happy enough with the way footsies work in GG or BB where motions aren’t a huge factor in the footsies compared to SF that I’d be willing to sacrifice that type of strategy.
Well, its worse to me if you do it wrong on purpose.
Honestly, it puts me in a bad place, because I really don’t want to denigrate anybody’s favorite game… So lets just let it suffice that it’s still bad if it’s an accident, just not ‘they made it bad on purpose!’ obnoxious.
Honestly, we all like some games which, if you look at them objectively, are pretty terrible. Its never a question of things ruining a game, just a question of it not being what it could have been.
I hate that they put arbitrary links in sf4. its still a good game, and one I’ve enjoyed a lot in the pat.
Sent from my Radar 4G using Board Express
You can train a monkey to hit 1f links. You can’t train a monkey to strategise.
Execution is a pointless barrier in the grand scheme of things, its why I can never stick with Tekken:
Me: So why do I need to learn to identify and break throws on reaction before I can even start to work on the basics of mindgames?
Harada: Because SKILLZ!!!111!1!
~_~
And I play an execution heavy character in my main game, purely because of the toolset. I just don’t see why some players see execution as proof of skill, when it isn’t. =/
Oh, as an aside.
Best episode is evil homeowners association.
Sent from my Radar 4G using Board Express
It’s possible to aim for a game with no artificial barriers, if we decide that we don’t want barriers. That just means we want to make the barriers as low as technically possible (approaching zero, but probably never getting there). If we decide that barriers are good, then we can discuss how high we want them to be.
Thought process:
- Do we want execution barriers in the game?
1.1 If we don’t, then make them as low as possible!
1.2 If we do, then how high should they be?
I brought this up before but DFO has a healthy competitive scene in Korea and the moves all can be hotkeyed and you can adjust any manual motions yourself. You have a limited number of hotkeys so people usually put their buffs and other skills on manual motions. What’s very different than normal fighting games is that you often have to keep track of your and the opponents cooldowns. When the match begins certain skills are automatically on cooldown and by 15-30 seconds their skills should be off cd and you know they have more options available.
You see more variety in team tournaments (this vid is singles) since your teammates can cover your bad matchups but there’s a good size of viable characters. Tourneys and competitive matches are played in fair arena so they helps alleviate the MMO part of the game which relies on gear, though their are still chances of missing and status procs and stuff. But still skill matters.
[media=youtube]3O_BPhLVYTY[/media]
Don’t quite remeber that one. The one where electronics are telling people to kill is good to
Versus threads are not allowed in the fgd.
VF has the lowest amount of execution in terms of timing during combos (I’m ignoring the weight specific stuff, side-turned situations, open/closed stances, counter hit/normal hit, full-walls/half-walls), but it makes up for it by having a huge amount of options and setups at any given time, giving strategy, reading (yomi) and reacting to said options and setups importance over combos with super tight timing (there’s that too, but less of them). What’s awesome about not having meter in the game, is that those said options aren’t limited to meter, and can be used at any given time. It’s a very open ended game.
However if there aren’t as many options, then you need to have execution (again in terms of timing during combos) to make up for it, since without it, the combos are easy and the options aren’t many, making the game boring.
I love playing Virtua Fighter because every hour I spend playing it I become a better player. It’s a very rewarding game to play. I’m sure Fuudo and Chibita have played thousands of VF matches in the arcades, yet they probably haven’t touched a VF training room in their life.
VS mode is best mode but training mode is a close second
In my humble opinion I believe execution,because what is the point of having all the strategy in the world when you don’t have the execution skill to pull it off. Arrange a setup and strategy and when it comes to lay the hurt you just go for a measly 100-180 damage when with execution you can net 300+ damage with the same setup and strategy.
eg. A basic Honda can cLP into HHS, when it comes down to the wire hitting a HHS into another HHS into super will clinch the match but requires a higher execution.
To me execution has a slightly higher value than strategy.
Me too, but in the long run, it’s probably harder to learn to play the version of a game where execution doesn’t get in the way of your options.
Just wanna say that the idea that execution doesn’t matter at the highest levels of play is preposterous. Even at EVO one of the reasons Daigo lost to XiaoHai was because he dropped a simple sweep combo (or whatever it was). And who remembers when JWong dropped those braindead Rufus U1 combos at that major (he did it perhaps at more than one tourney) earlier this year? Krone lost to Rufus twice (at CEO? don’t remember) because he dropped the same combo in the same situation twice. Whether it’s because of nerves, a brainfart, a just an honest mistake, players will drop combos, so execution always matters.
I also don’t get why it’s so hard for people to understand that some people just have different tastes. Sako said recently said that he likes the challenge of mastering a technical character, while Nuki said he likes games where you can get a good battle of wits. Most people obviously accept that some level of execution and strategy will be inherent in any FG. Whichever aspect you prefer is just personal preference. If a game lends itself more toward strategy than execution (or vice versa), it doesn’t mean that it’s more important in the grand scheme of things. If anything, it just means that game is probably going to appeal more to a certain type of player. The quality of the game is a different matter completely.
Re: when does a link become “too hard”:
This is a much more complex issue than attempting to mathematically measure link windows to human reaction. There’s also no set “now this is okay” measurement, as some people have loads of trouble with 1-frame links (me) while others don’t, and the number of frames minimum to make that window easy (mine is 3) differs. Similarly some people have trouble with charge motions, where others find them generally easier (me) than the various semi-circles.
In ST and HDR, those hard links can exist without too much trouble. In other games, they are crucial. And in some of those, designers even give the player alternate means to execute without changing the on-screen result (Blazblue “hold to link,” the upcoming Skullgirls patch letting Filia input an airdash earlier than would be possible and still having it come out at the first possible moment). I don’t really dig Blazblue and its 17 meter gameplay, but a good idea is a good idea. And Skullgirls remains hype and awesome and hype despite Mike Z. making things easier where possible.
IMO, that’s one of the things that makes Skullgirls awesome - the fact that Mike does acknowledge the issue and added things to help make execution easier such as non-arbitratily assigned input windows (they’re based on the number of directions - 4 frames per direction, plus an extra 4 for directions not next to each other), 360 detection that keeps you from jumping when doing a 360, etc.
When it exists.
Links only offer one unique aspect (“meaty only” links) but almost no game takes advantage of that anyway, so might as well put chains instead.
Because if you don’t you’ll get thrown all day…learn all the mindgames you want, if you aren’t breaking throws you might as well hang it up. Actually, why in SCV do throws take damage when you have to guess correctly AND react correctly so you won’t be in - frames. Oh btw they can kill you…yeah great design choice.