(SSF4:X) SF4 full conversion mod thread. v0.39 Alpha now available! [04/14/2014] (19 chars!)

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
61

Also, I’m open to suggestions on how to buff her Ultra 2 properly. I feel that solving the “Counter Ultra usability” puzzle is one that needs to be done carefully but can be solved.

Some things that I’ve been considering is what makes it weak and what makes it risky. There are always 2 issues that come to mind: 1. it’s not guaranteed damage almost ever but changing that isn’t what I’d want to do personally as it removes some of the uniqueness of a counter itself, then it just becomes an attack that does extra damage if it counters something.
2. It’s very punishable
3. It’s a large investment for a player to lose their other ultra for POTENTIAL damage.

The ideas I’ve had is:

  1. Significantly reduce the total frame count. I can’t thing of a SINGLE situation where the counter needs 35F active frames, no good player is going to fall for that. Cut the active from 35 to 15 and cut the recovery from 68 to 38 this leaves the total frame count at a much more reasonable 54F which is about the equivalent of an SRK. Still punishable but not absurdly so.
  2. In addition to #1 have a 30%(or so) of your ultra bar refilled if the move whiffs. This makes it so that the ultra can potentially return as a threat in the same round it was used if it whiffed.
  3. Allow some moves to be canceled into this ultra during their recovery frames. Similar to how Akuma’s U2 functions this can create a safety net where players have to be cautious about attempting to punish usually unsafe attacks. If this one was done it would probably need a small damage cut.
62

U2 is used in situations where you can see your opponent doing a move that can be countered, ie Viper’s burn kick. Your third idea is pretty cool, but Cammy generally doesn’t have any unsafe normals in the first place, none that she uses. The most obvious improvement to the move is to make it not weak to armor breaking. I think this would be too big a buff. Really, the only way to make the move more useful is to make more telegraphed moves in the game, which is a no-go.

As an aside, a simple buff to U2 that would be a small fry but still appreciated would be to make it neutral on hit, instead of negative.

63

The only move of Cammy’s that would really be viable for such a think would be her Spin Knuckle I would think.

64

As interesting as that third option is/was I’ve decided not to go with it because there isn’t really any good DEFENSIVE tool Cammy is using that would work for it. Spin Knuckle/Hooligan/Spiral are all offensive tools. I after messing with the concept I realized that it would just result in rewarding reckless behavior from Cammy, something she is already being rewarded for with EX Cannon Spike in AE2012 and something I want to reduce somewhat.

I’ve decided to go with 3 major changes.

  1. Complete overhaul of the frame data on whiff. The move is now 0+1 / 20 / 34 (down from 0+1 / 35 / 61) this significantly reduces the punishable aspect of the move but still carries risk as all ultras should.
  2. Rework the frame data ON HIT. Thank you @Motm I did not know previously that she was negative on hit after a successful counter. As such I’ve tweaked and tweaked it till it felt right (to me.) her U2 is now significantly advantaged on hit however not enough to really set up a safe jump or anything. I don’t have the exact numbers for her advantage but I’ve sped up the recovery of the move on hit by 32F.
  3. Damage buff from 470 to 500. As you know, one of the near-universal changes to my project is a reduction in the damage ultras deal pretty much across the board except in a few instances where ultras deal paltry damage currently (such as Guile’s U2 or Chun’s U2). Since this ultra isn’t one that can ever be comboed into, and can’t be used as a punish (like an command throw ultra) it requires input from your opponent to be useful. Any time you create a situation where the control of a particular situation is in the hands of the opposing player ENTIRELY you are creating a large risk scenario as well as weakening the overall versatility of the move in question. As such the damage on both Cammy and Fei Long’s counter ultra will be increased from 470 to 500. This buff to counter ultra damage, when combined with the lowered damage of other ultras (Cammy’s U1 is getting a nerf) will make counter ultras seem a bit more worth while. Currently, both Fei and Cammy’s Ultra 1 do more damage than their counter ultra in AE2012 which I believe combined with the increased versatility of their U1 and the risk of their U2 makes the counter ultra seem even worse.
65

Cammy is almost done, lots of buffs and some nerfs. I hope it works out, I think she feels good and overall better than she is in AE2012 but less autopilot playable with some changes.

Here are a couple of the highlight changes.

close HP - made 5F startup damage made 85 accross the board (regardless of frame you hit on.) stun made 150 across the board regardless of frame.
close MP - frame advantage on hit reduced making it only +5F on hit. Pushback on hit reduced. Hitstun on counterhit INCREASED. Landing a CH close MP grants more frame advantage that CH close HP, can actually combo to U1 just as crHP previously could but had it removed. Damage reduced from 70 to 60 for grounded hit. Hitting it as an anti air = 70 damage regardless of what frame you hit on (no longer 60 dmg on later frames.) close MP also now forces standing on hit.
close LK - Now required to be closer to the to the opponent to get the close LK to come out. Damage increased to 35. This means you should have less instances of doing close LK at ranges it cannot ever hit and instead will get far LK.
close HK - Startup reduced from 9F to 8F hitbox slightly buffed. Damage increased from 110 to 120 (130 when hitting an airborne opponent.) can now be performed as a command normal at any time with Down + Forward + HK.
Far MK damage increased to 75 hurtbox moved slightly back so hitbox extends past hurtbox now.
Far HP later frames damage increased to 120.
Far HK recovery increased by 1F blockstun increased by 2F
crLK - is now 4F startup. Retains it’s ability to chain into itself. Hitbox was moved up and farther forward slightly (it now has more reach.) damage was increased from 25 to 30.
crMK - recovery increased by 2F. Damage increased from 65 to 70. Hitbox moved forward slightly (now has a little bit more reach.) blockstun increased by 2F

DP - MK damage on first 2F increased from 100 to 110. Damage is still 140 on later frames.
HK damage on first 2F increased from 100 to 120 damage is still 160 on later frames. Invincibility increased from 1-5F to 1-6F
EX - damage on later frames increased from 95 to 110. Invincibility increased from 1-6F to 1-12F.

All DPs have had their active frames reduced towards the end of the move. Cammy is still active until she reaches the peak of her ascent but she is no longer active after that (no more hitting while falling.)

Spin Knuckle drastically reworked. All non-ex versions of Spin Knuckle are now vulnerable 1-2F (meaning they cannot avoid meaty fireballs or strikes.) all spin knuckles have had their travel distance reduced. All of them have been sped up DRAMATICALLY. All Non-EX Spin Knuckles now OVERHEAD. All Spin Knuckles now float slightly higher and cause slightly less knockback distance. It is possible to spin knuckle - u1 and get the non-cinematic version.
LP Spin Knuckle Startup is now 23F startup. Blockstun reduced by 2F (now +1F on block.) damage reduced from 8080 to 7050 stun reduced to 10050. Hitstun on first hit increased by 1F (it is now possible to do counter hit close MP - LP SK - FADC - close MP).
MP Spin Knuckle Startup is now 27F startup. Blockstun reduced by 1F (now +2F on block.) damage reduced to 6575 stun remains 100*100.
HP Spin Knuckle Startup is now 30F startup. No change to blockstun or damage.
EX Spin Knuckle was unchanged.

All Spiral Arrows can now be FADC’d on the first 7F active (the grounded frames). However all spiral arrows have had their blockstun reduced by 2F.
MK Spiral Arrow damage reduced from 100 to 90. Stun is still 150.
Damage on HK Spiral Arrow was changed from 4080 to 10040. Stun was changed from 80100 to 10080. This means FADCing the first hit gets you more damage now.
EX Spiral Arrow projectile invincibility is now 4F-25F

Dive Kicks were reworked dramatically. Lowered height requirement by about 30%. LK Dive is now 16F startup but active until it reaches the ground and has a slowish decent, does 45damage. MK startup is 14F and it’s active frames remain 11F. MK Version does 50damage 100stun. HK version has 12F startup but active frames were reduced to 9F, the move falls very quickly though and can be used for mobility it does 60 damage 100stun. Hitstun on all non-ex dive kicks was reduced by 2F and all non-ex dive kicks blockstun was reduced by 1F. The landing recovery is still 5F. The hitbox was moved slightly upward and the hurtbox moved slightly down to make it a bit easier to anti air. All normal dive kicks now have the same position and size for their hit/hurtboxes (previously they were slightly different.)

EX Dive Kick hitbox size was reduced from 0.25x0.25 to 0.2x0.2 and the hurtbox slightly increased around the legs. However it is now flagged as “Can Cross Up” meaning it should still be able to cross up as easily if not easier than before. Hitstun was reduced by 4F and blockstun was reduced by 6F. Damage increased from 80 to 85 and stun increased from 100 to 120. The move can no longer be performed from a back jump, however it still can be done from neutral and retains it’s zero height requirement and 4F landing frames making it still very strong. On counter hit is still capable of going directly into ultra 1.

All Hooligans startup was reduced by 3F and no longer travel quite so high up making it faster to cancel to catch people. Combined with the change to Spin Knuckle hitting overhead the hooligan combination should become more useful as you can make people stand up more often with Spin Knuckle meaning that hooligan will work. If they crouch - spin knuckle. If they are standing - hooligan.

Forward and Back Throw have had their damage increased to 145dmg 140stun (back throw) and 150damage 130 stun (forward throw) however they now cause the opponent to be SLIGHTLY farther away than previously which should mess up some unblockables. In addition her throw range was slightly increased.

FJ LK damage was buffed from 30 to 45
FJ HK slightly reduced hitbox width but damage increased from 100 to 110.

Cammy’s Super damage increased by 20 and now the first 3 hits must be blocked crouching.
Cammy’s U1 damage reduced by 30 and now the first 3 hits must be blocked crouching.

A few changes to Cody since previous notes:

HP Badstone now cannot hit crouching opponents from 3F-12F of it’s active frames. Arc height reduced slightly
F+HK damage reduced across the board from 100 to 90 and stun reduced from 200 to 175. Startup increased from 11F to 13F and airborne frames now start on 5F. Lost the free juggle state on counter hit.
crMK - blockstun reduced by 1F. Now +1F on hit -4F on block hurtbox on legs increased in height by a small amount.
EX Zonk now requires 90F of charge (up from 60F)
LP Criminal Upper blockstun for tornado hits reduced by 1F. Now -3F on block, still hard to punish when spaced, sometimes impossible depending on character.
crLK - hitstun reduced by 1F. Now back to +2F on hit. However it still can be chained into any other light attack.

66

do your changes address bad matchups? Gouken vs akuma gets toasted by st.hk and demon flip palm OS for example . Do your character changes address things like that?

67

Not on a character by character move by move basis.

TBH the changes are a bit too large in scope to accurately predict HOW MUCH it will affect individual match ups. However I believe that if I can make each character good at what they do that many match ups will improve.

For Akuma vs Gouken for instance, by improving Gouken to be stronger while standing and better at zoning he becomes much harder to be put into situations were demon flip palm OS becomes a threat. Things like making Gouken’s AAs hurt more, giving him a slightly better walk speed, a much better back dash, and better mid range hit confirm options means Akuma will likely spend a lot more health trying to get into the position he can force Gouken to deal with demon flip palm. For Akuma’s far stHK being an issue Gouken has multiple improved normals and walk speed which means that Akuma has to respect his mid range game a bit more meaning he can’t bully him as much with far HK.

68

Why the change to Cammy’s mk DP? Because of the changes to hk DP, mk is more useless than ever. The only time anyone uses mk DP anyway is if they’re playing a one button challenge match.

69

TBH there isn’t a good way (imo) to adjust her MK DP that makes sense that I can think of. It’s difficult to make every strength of the move useful while retaining the damage / risk / reward due to the fact she has a preset recovery animation on hit/block. I could alter all 4 of her DPs rebounds to be slightly different to make different safety nets, I think first I wanna see how she plays out with the other changes. It (like everything) is open for change. Don’t worry, I ain’t capcom. I’m not gonna just make a change hard set just because I don’t want to put in the time to fix something lol.

Thank you for the feedback. I did another pass on every character last night and upped some damage on a few things.

As I’ve nearly gotten Cammy to a “beta” stage I’ll explain my design principle for her.

Cammy is a pure rushdown character by design, she has good footsies but what she wants is to get in your face and press buttons. From a mechanics standpoint she is exceptional at this and while I don’t think there is anything WRONG with that I’d like to encourage her to be a bit more aware of what she uses and when. I feel while Cammy has a lot of options for a lot of situations and some of the most free flow combo options the lack of any sort of direction tends to cause many players to find a couple of combos that work and stick with them for all situations. To this end I’ve altered the frame data on a number of moves as well as the hit/blockstun to reduce some ways Cammy can combo naturally but also open up a large number of completely new combos available only when landing a counterhit.

I’ve also tried to lower some of her punch based attacks damage and effectiveness while increasing her leg based attacks damage and effectiveness. Many of her kicks have good reach but go under used due to the lack of combo options and positional advantage she can get out of them. She uses far sHK and far sMK a lot in certain match ups but then very little in others. She clearly from an art and move style perspective has great lower body strength (things like her Frankensteiner throws take a ton of leg strength.) All of her kick normals got a damage boost except for far HK. Many of her kick normals also got hitbox buffs.

Her dive kicks are a big source of her strength and while I’ve made it so that she needs to be a bit more careful when aiming them to be able to get the most out of them (or stay safe) I’ve upped their versatility. Each one of her dive kicks travels at a different angle and falls at noticeably different speed, this makes it much harder to anti air her consistently as they all require different timing/positioning to anti air. Her EX TKCS is one of the things that makes her frame trap game deadly and she retains this, she still has only a 4F landing recovery making it difficult to punish on whiff and it still has a zero height requirement. The damage was actually upped from 80 to 85 and stun from 100 to 120 on her EX TKCS to make up somewhat for the reduced block/hitstun and smaller hitbox. Her regular dive kicks now build 50% more meter on whiff than previously and have a significantly lower height requirement (was 1.2 now 0.8 which is the same height requirement as Ibuki’s Kunai throw (Slightly lower to the ground than even Yun’s dive kick). She also now has a safe and effective overhead with her LP Spin Knuckle being 23F startup and +1F on block which majorly changes how you have to defend against her, no longer can you down back and wait for tic throws. Her throws now do more damage (just as everyones do) but now they cause Cammy to be a very small amount farther than previously. She is still at more than enough advantage and still close enough to do a cross up but no longer point blank range which hurts her ability to do unblockables.

Overall I feel she is actually a more well rounded and actually more effective character while retaining her free form combos and high damage output but loses some of her get in with little effort and auto pilot frame traps. In the hands of a good player she should be more scary up close than ever as well as at mid range during footsies.

70

Decided for shits and giggles that since this mod is going in a very different direction than Ultra SF4 I should name it what Capcom decided NOT to name USF4.

The mod (unless someone suggests something better) is now Super Street Fighter 4: X

Why? Because fuck it, why not?

Also I have a question for people: Would you rather wait for the full patch notes which could take a while to compile or have me just ship and go by the less detailed stuff I released for each character until the patch notes are all together?

71

If it’s just an alpha with ten characters then I don’t see why anybody needs detailed patch notes right away. You should probably do it soon, though.

72

I appreciate the feedback. I think I’ll release in 2-3 days with 9 complete characters. I’m a little bit stuck on Deejay ATM and I want to do 1 more pass for the 9 currently complete characters before I release.

I’ve updated the main post with a new video however until then (last video I’ll do before release). The Cody video I did previously only showed his 1 new move (Desperation Attack). However as with most of the videos I wanted to do a video where I smash a bunch of the changes together into 1 combo (Vega/Gouken and to a lesser extent THawk videos are like that. Thawk I did a couple of combos because he isn’t a very combo oriented character in the first place so they were all going to be shortish.)

Cody’s video shows his better crossup fj HP (and 10 more damage.) his less pushback (and 10 more damage) on f+MP, shows his knife pickup as a special move (meaning he can cancel into it from normals.) shows his sLP being +7F on hit. His crHP being special cancelable (and having damage reduced to 105 which will be in final notes.) and his faster knife throw, and lastly shows his ability to juggle with U2. All in one combo (that only cost 1 bar!)

Also, if anyone has the situational awareness AND executional skills to pull off a “knife pickup” combo in a real match I’ll be quite happy and surprised. I think it’s a fun idea but it’s def hard to get all of the pieces together for it to even be available (opponent has to be standing near or on top of the knife when you hit with a medium or heavy attack and you have to cancel that into knife pickup and then cancel the knife pickup into a light attack.)

73

Released the current mod with 9 characters instead of the 10 I planned originally simply due to wanting to get some early feedback and see if people like the overall direction it’s going. Please post your feedback here and if possible record some videos of you playing with friends!

If you find any bugs or something you think is working incorrectly please let me know and I’ll look into it ASAP. :slight_smile:

74

Updated the pastebin with complete notes for Rose (as well as changed Cody and Gouken to properly reflect the publicly released version of the mod)
http://pastebin.com/bp0tRfn3

75

Updated pastebin with partial Vega notes (includes design principle and all normals but no specials / super / ultra notes)

76

Updated notes with finished Vega notes and partial Dan notes (Found 2 errors in Dan changes, don’t need to report these:
Dan’s backdash still has 8F invincibility (Should be 4F like everyone else)
Dan’s crMK hurtbox settings don’t last until last active frame due to new frame data. W

Those will be fixed in next revision of the mod.

77

Writing up Dan’s patch notes, decided to do some messing around with him in training mode for fun. Found a re-donkulous combo against Abel lol. 532 damage 920 stun. 3bars no ultra.

Abel in the corner
FJ HK - clsHK - clsMP - crHP (yes it works) - EX Gadouken - FADC - Run (you need to run a little bit after the FADC to get close enough for the rest to work, a regualar dash isn’t enuf) - clsHK - clsMP - crHP - HK Danku

:open_mouth:

78

Little sad no one has given any sort of feedback / issues or posted any videos since I released 9 characters. :confused:

O well, back to compiling the patch notes.

79

Is anyone even playing this at all? ._.

80

I don’t play any of those characters :\