18841

That from a Dictator player… oh boy…

18842

>Dictator player
>calling any other character easy mode

Lol. Though “easy to play” doesn’t always translate into “good”.

18843

Ok, I asked Snake eyes, I’ll see what I get. I will wait a little with Happy medicine numbers, since he only gave me the numbers - maybe he will give some reasoning.

For now, some Gen questions (ugo was complaining for the lack of it):

  • Gen vs Dee Jay:

I want to hear more oppinions on this one.
Da Knut: 4-6 dee jay favour: "Gen has to find a way in and DJ does not. DJ gets his damage from Gen attempting to get in. Gen destroy DJ in footsies but luckily DJ’s cr.fp is a good universal AA for both of Gen jump arcs"
Hnic Mike: “that match is even. its about even in the neutral game with neither character having really strong answers to the others jump ins. deejay has the fireball, gen has the better buttons and 2 jump arcs. and both characters do what they want if they get on top of the other. deejay has to have some respect for ex dp, and gen has to guess the correct grounded OS. neither has real solutions to the others offensive oki tho. i dont really see why either would have an advantage if he mixes between max range crane jumps, and mantis empty jumps, he’s going to get in. mp is really your go to button in this match anyway. it hits both jumps at all ranges, and its safer on whiff against the empty jumps.theres a sweet spot where near max range early crane jump fierce eats crouch fierce, and mostly every other button you have. it’ll lose to far RH, or far FP, but the jump needs to be obvious for you to use those. crane fierce has a dead zone or some shit where even mp will get eaten sometimes. it does that to a bunch of AAs in the game but anyway, he mixes that with the empties and he’s in without taking a bunch of damage. i think the harder part of the match is dj on offense running frame traps into hard KDs into BS.”

I would like to hear more from Da Knut, Mike, other gen mainers.

  • Gen vs Balrog: 3nigmatic proposed 4.5-5.5 - if no gen mainer express an oppinion, I will proceed with the change (this match was never touched by anyone. I listed earlier 3nigmatic argument).
18844

Bison, Balrog, Guile are easy mode at low level level play but at the higher the skill level its get as tough from them as any other character,because the options they have are more limited. At high level play, they require good solid play at all times. They don’t have big come back factors and vortex’s other characters can turn matches around with.

18845

Bison getting vortexed ? :S

EDIT: nvm didn’t read well (thx vulpes)

18846

Azza meant that Bison/Guile/Boxer don’t have a vortex on their own (and thus can’t lose a round, score a lucky knockdown, win)

I completely agree. But as you noted yourself, that applies to all of them.

Either you look at the base (lowlevel play, where you just derp and win), then Guile is easy but Dictator sure as fuck way easier
Or you look deeper (highlevel play, where the derp doesn’t win), then Dictator isn’t easy anymore, but Guile sure as fuck isn’t either.

A Dictator player calling Guile easy is laughable either way.
At least Guile has to block on wakeup (or save himself the trouble, as he is gonna get unblockabled anyways), while Dictators “I lulz around with 20 different reversals” stays true at all levels of play.

18847

Listen, just because Bison has:

-a billion invincible reversals

-one button footsies

-normals that all virtually safe on block

-“lazy mode” combos without 1f links

-combos that work regardless if the opponent is standing/crouching

-a safe special that is almost always a blockstring

-a safe special that moves forward and is 2-hits

-a crouch tech that hit-confirms into itself

-only one practical OS on oki

-no armor cancels

-no important FADC combos

-no dash ultras

does NOT make him ez mode.

More seriously, I don’t think Happy Medicine’s point was that “Guile is derp, Bison is not”. He was responding to a question about why Guile-Bison was 8-2 when it doesn’t feel like that in low level play. His point was that there are certain match-ups you can’t judge accurately because most people who play those characters (Bison included, IMO) are terrible. In the context of the conversation it doesn’t make sense to make the same point about Bison because a) the mirror is obviously 5-5 and b) he’s a high level player.

Or it was because Dieminion had just raped him in a set, and he was salty.

18848

Either answer is acceptable. Fighting a good Guile makes Bison players want to punch a baby

18849

No offense, I’ll tell you Happy Medicine would shit on 98% of the players on this forum.

That being said, Jakob doesn’t hate Guile because of Dieminion. He hates guile because lower level players can play him well enough to make even a top level Bison’s life a living hell. When you couple it with a player as good as Dieminion is it becomes that much more of a nightmare.

I’ve seen the match up played out and Bison’s normal anti-projectile moves lose to the sonic boom or are almost too difficult to beat.

18850

bipson´s u1 against booms is ass… same goes for u2

18851

bison needs

or

18852

chubby bipson ftw

18853

Bison with an overhead would be a damn good character.

18854

Heh he already is a damn good character, just has a few bad match ups. Though while he loses to characters like Guile he has some really winnable match ups against most of the top 5 characters.

18855

Heh yeah though I was meaning he’d probably be a top five contender with that change.

18856

While we’re on the wishlist topic, Juri with a 3f DP :looney:

18857

Juri is already super goddamn beastly like everywhere else.

18858

Ok, I will list the changes proposed by Happy Medicine. Unfortunatelly he only gave me the numbers, if I receive more I will update the post

BISON proposed changes (bison on the left)
from Happy Medicine:

  • Abel: 4-6 to 6.5-3.5
    Juicebox: "This match is like Fei and Akuma. Bison can literally just stand still at half-screen, and there’s nothing you can do. No jumps, no dashing, no nothing. The key is that the Bison player should simply react to any button press with his st.HK and he’ll beat your stuff clean. If you try to bait his normals so you can start counter poking him, he should start using LK scissor kick and simply walking backwards. He only needs to land one scissor to reset the screen position. And lets not forget that even if you DO hit him, your odds of guessing right on his knockdown are slim due to his suite of reversals. For Abel to win this match you have to make reads on his wakeup, and you have to work the clock to it’s maximum to try to get the Bison player to act recklessly.in fact, yeah Abel vs Bison should be 3-7"
    801 Strider - 5-5
    Nah Frenchie - 5-5
    ShadowOS - Abel’s favour
    Mike Chow - I’ve never talked to juicebox about this match, but i have had a lot of talk with gustavo (strider801) about it, since he hates it so much and has so much trouble. People talk about the fight like st. rh does chip damage or something. The reality is that bison has: no overhead, no kara-throw, no super dangerous CH setups, nothing. He does no damage and has no truly dangerous offense as long as you don’t feel like blocking is for other people. Scissor kick pressure also means nothing; you can pay back like 20 reps of blocked scissor kicks in a single stepkick, and he’s risking just that every time he does more than one scissor kick in pressure, especially if its midscreen. None of his good mid-range tools are multi-hitting, which means everything he does is focus dash bait. Even if you don’t have the presence of mind to do instant focus dashes to st. rh’s or st. forwards, the only way bison can deal with midscreen FA’s is scissor kicks, which means he has to always have charge ready, which also means he isn’t moving forward. The truth of this match is that abel can just walk forward at bison and, as long as he stops periodically to block, bison is going to be pushed back by the simple reality that he can’t risk staying in range of step kick, and I’m not even talking about the possibility of counter poking his normals (which isn’t all that hard). On knockdown, all you need to do is meaty cr. jab. No sick pressure, no awesome reads, just meaty cr. jab. You’re safe to every wakeup option he has and every one of them is punishable from this position. EX psycho? reversal ultra or lp CoD gets you a full punish. Teleport? Depending on where he goes to, walk forward step kick or fierce CoD punishes. The other punishes should be self-explanatory. This is all you should be doing if he has meter, at least until he stops mashing reversals on wakeup like every bison does when they get knocked down. Eventually, he either dies, runs out of meter, or has to stop mashing and block on wakeup. Then you tt him. 6-4 abel, nothing to see here."
    Azza: “Bison has basically S.MK and S.HK and thats it. He can zone Abel out with these and anti air his jump ins with S.HK. Its the universal wonder move, but its basically all Bison has.
    Abel has other options to get inlike, Roll, EX.Cod, Focus dash and step kick. Each on there own is not good. But he will fine away of getting in eventually.
    Once Abel gets in he can quickly can up or more than make up the damage he took getting in. Bison is dead on knock down if he has no meter. If he does ave meter
    Roll breaks back charge and abel has NJ.HP to beat EX.DR. Bison can counter that EX.HP but if Abel doesn’t jump he’s in big trouble.If Bison’s stays on the ground he’s in a lobsided
    guessing game of escape the command throw or sit out the block string. Guess wrong and your forced into another guess Bison basically gets stuck in the grinder and if he has no meter
    he has very little chance of getting out.
    Abel can deal with EX.DR on reaction he can chase it down. Once he has his either Ultra he can punish EX.PC on block and Ex.DR on its landing. Rolls also make teleport difficult for Bison.
    The only other weak point for Abel is his poor wake up which gives Bison an avenue for offense.
    Kim1234 mentioned this was a really hard match for him. He wreckens the key is for Abel to turtle up and build meter with Sky Fall because there isn’t much Bison can do about it.”

[media=youtube]NSdYn_13Qfg[/media]

  • Adon: 6-4 to 5.5-4.5
  • Akuma: 5-5 to 4.5-5.5 - Loyal ? shin ? superlollo ? do you agree ?
    ShadowOS: i think 5.5-4.5 bison. akuma’s extra lower health actually means something in this MU because bison’s lower damage means a lot more. no meter bison is screwed, with meter it turns into a guessing game on bison’s wake up. bison has the universal shoto safe jump/unblockable on akuma and can chase down teleports rather easily.
  • Viper: 6-4 to 4.5-5.5
  • Chun Li: 4.5-5.5 to 5-5 - Azrael ? what do you think ?
  • Dan: 5-5 to 7-3
  • Dee Jay: 6-4 to 4.5-5.5
    ShadowOS: i’d put at 4-6 deejay. i used to think it wasn’t so bad since bison s.mk works wonders in that match up but the guile like booms and aa options makes it very very difficult to get any sort of offense going. then you’re subjected to deejays jump ins which are somewhat difficult for bison to stop (not counting the cross up ‘vortex’ he does, which is even more problematic). for what it’s worth, last i heard from happy medicine he also thought it was 4-6.
    buuut then i fought some deejays in a few tournaments. they were pretty sub-par players in general and they were getting awfully close to knocking me out. that’s where i realized there was actually nothing bison could do vs max-out > slide. the best solution is to empty jump, and hope they don’t catch on and start aa-ing bison with s.fierce and s.rh, or air-to-air moves. if you successfully empty jump a guile you get a combo out of it, but deejay remains safe because of his slide spacing.
    you’re forced to play on the ground vs deejay. bison has to slowly walk deejay to the corner and take quite a bit of chip or damage in doing so, much like guile. a deejay walking forward a la guile is also a scary thought. using s.mk like in my quoted post works really well, but if deejay keeps throwing his fireballs and peppering in safe slides then he’ll get a kd and begin his pressure or run away some more (slide will actually go under s.mk). slide in footsie range will also beat scissors
    i know deejay is a different character than guile but from a bison perspective it’s pretty darn similar. it’s hard to NOT treat deejay like guile when all deejay has to do is follow his fireball and be ready to aa. slide is incredibly good risk/reward for deejay because slide keeps deejay safe at all times (except POINT blank obviously), goes under bison footsies and results in a knockdown"
    Da Knut: " -DJ does not have a lp boom, no cr.fp or air throw (the AA that is problematic for Bison). No poke like Guile’s st.fp ( DJ has st.mk . It’s good but it doesn’t have that gdlk hitbox, the damage isn’t high and it’s not plus on hit or block like Guile’s).
    -DJ does not have a reversal that hits a crouching Bison. This means that after a knockdown, Bison does not have to respect DJ’s wake up at all because he can low meaty DJ and still be able to punish DJ’s back dash without an OS. The back dash is that bad. What usually happens to a DJ player after a knockdown, is that Bison will meaty cr.lk or whatever button, scissor kick and repeat with out any repercussions. This knocks DJ back into the corner and the sad part is that DJ can’t reversal or backdash. He has to bend over and take it. BTW, DJ cr.lk has 5f startup so he is vulnerable to frame traps and tick throw setups.
    -DJ does have a sobat kick. Personaly, I don’t use it much in this matchup or against characters with good footsies and/or fast walk speeds. lk sobat is -5, mk -7, hk -9 and Ex is -8. Do you really think it’s easy to space these against Bison? he is fast walking backwards and foward. And people now a days neutral jump a lot, waitin and baiting. Sobat kicks should be used in combos and punishes (against Bison).
    -DJ does have the knee shot and j.mk. It’s good in the matchup. Most Bison players have a hard time AA it. The top Bison players reject it or block and then reversal out of the block string without any reprecussions. DJ gets most of his damage from people jumping too much or mixups. A fundametally sound Bison isn’t gonna do to much jumping and Bison has too many escape options.
    -DJ slide. It’s ok it’s hardly ever safe. It starts up at 14f lol. It can be used as an AA but can be baited because it can’t AA empty jumps.
    -DJ upkicks are good and can be a problem, if DJ has down charge. Bison shouldn’t worry about jumping in on wakeup except in the corner. DJ doesn’t have a solid solution against Bison’s Ambiguous safe jump in the corner. IDK if it’s an unblockable or not. I need to test it.
    -DJ has good air to airs. But he has a hard time AA Bison j.fp. There is a deadzone where DJ cannot AA that move. He needs Guile’s cr.fp Kappa. In Super, I used to slide and escape but in AE, the slide is shorter and dangerous."
  • Dhalsim: 5-5 to 4.5-5.5
  • Honda: 4-6 to 3.5-6.5 - Nybb ? do you agree ?
  • Fuerte: 4-6 to 6-4
    iPeru - 4-6
    ShadowOS - 4.5-5.5
    SacoJericho - 4-6
  • Evil Ryu: 5.5-4.5 to 5-5 - BigDaddy ? what do you think ?
    Dafeetlee - 5-5
    Dogura-Naruo 0-3 in ToL
  • Fei Long: 5-5 to 4.5-5.5
  • Guile: 3-7 to 2-8
    Slinkun: “Nope. Bison can still make a good guess on a jump, empty jump, or do a delayed normal to trade. He can trade with sonic boom with a s.hk at the right ranges. He can EX psycho through a boom at safe range. He can bulldog a little better than most do to his walk speed. If he corners Guile, it’s rape time until he escapes. A blocked lk scissors pushes Guile into the corner, a good bit, and while a reversal boom will beat everything out after, EX scissors WILL go through. Unfortunately, this can be baited and get hit by reversal U1.
    Don’t get me wrong, the match really is straight booty for bison, but it was EMP Hiro who knocked me out of UFGT 8 just because he did all of the stuff listed above. Saying it’s 8-2 with t.hawk / blanka is a bit defeatist. That match is 8-2 because blanka literally shuts down every single option that hawk has, and there really isn’t much he can do about it other than get lucky or if Blanka falls asleep or tries to style. Bison CAN make openings against Guile, but it’s very difficult.
    But yah… it is pretty bad. If bison reacts to an LP boom with devil reverse, he just trapped himself and is either going to get hit by the boom or an AA. If he headstomped instead, he gets airthrown. In either of those situations, guile can: LP boom > react to jump/stomp with air throw > land > dash > AA… and if the AA whiffs then bison got hit by the boom. If he goes to the air when Guile isn’t doing anything, he gets air thrown. If he tries to focus through a boom, he eats double s.hp. If he tries to EX scissor through a boom, it will likely hit once and then the boom will hit him anyways. However, he CAN make good reads on jumps and CAN mix up his angles, and CAN mix up his jumping normals to beat out guile on the ground.”
  • Hakan: 4-6 to 6-4 - UltraDavid ? Nybb ? what do you say ?
    UltraDavid - 4-6
  • Ibuki: 6.5-3.5 to 5.5-4.5
    Buktooth: "7-3. - ibuki can’t get in on a defensive bison; if she falls behind in health at all (which isn’t hard given that bison can chip at her if need be), she has to basically hope for a mistake from the bison player
  • she has no good answer for s.mk: can’t whiff punish it, can’t connect her focus attack at range, and s.mp only beats it preemptively and when used out of range
  • typically ibuki can fall back on playing footsies with the rekka kicks if she’s outranged on the ground. bison’s s.mk is both faster and farther than the rekka kicks
  • can’t soft counter s.mk by walking forward and gaining corner position, you’re well within short scissors range at that point
  • bison wins the ground game easily enough that it’s not difficult for the bison player to put up a wall of things while looking to jump mp anti air
  • if ibuki does manage to get in, her overhead (which is her crouch tech/stand tech counter) whiffs against bison mashing c.lk
  • after blocking target combo, bison c.lk will still avoid and beat ibuki’s s.lp, effectively nullifying her advantage
  • if ibuki manages to knock bison down, between bison’s plentiful reversal options (not even including black, backdash and focus backdash) ibuki has to guess a very specific counter depending on which escape option bison uses. the odds of guessing right are very low
  • ex psycho crusher is a guaranteed way to get out of the mixup. to deal with that, ibuki has to have u2 and resort to a simple, universal throw/hit/guard mixup on bison’s wakeup
  • if ibuki manages to get a lead and wants to hold on to it, she’s not very well-equipped to keep bison away. bison can simply kick her back to the corner and then slowly start racking up chip damage"
  • Juri: 6-4 to 5-5 - Vulpes ? Genki ? Lion ? do you agree ?
  • Makoto: 5-5 to 4.5-5.5 - Killer ? what do you think ?
    801 Strider - 5-5
  • Oni: 5-5 to 6-4
  • Rose: 5-5 to 6-4
  • Rufus: 5-5 to 4.5-5.5
  • Sakura: 6-4 to 4.5-5.5
  • Seth: 4-6 to 4.5-5.5 - Breaker ? do you agree ?
  • Hawk: 6-4 to 4-6
  • Yang: 5.5-4.5 to 4.5-5.5
    Illiterate: 5.5-4.5

I would like to hear Azza and m16’s oppinions on these changes, since there is a lot of stuff (and many controversial).

18859

Me and Jakob had a nice long talk about this on the car ride back from the Austin 25th. I think the conclusion we came to…we both fucking hate this match up.

It’s honestly a match up the Akuma players think Bison’s slightly favored, the Bison players think Akuma is favored, and really you could make an argument for 5-5, 4.5-5.5, or 5.5-4.5 and be logically sound.

It’s just difficult for all parties involved. At lower levels it is easily Bison’s favor, but as the Akuma player’s skill increases the match up levels off. It’s somewhere around 5-5 and either character can win it.

For me I don’t care what you put this match up as. As I worded it before “It’s like your bi-polar cousin, one moment you have fun being around him and the next moment he is trying to light you on fire.”

18860

And, I’ve got some input from Snake Eyez :). He said our list is pretty good (“Wow! this Gief matchup chart is pretty good. I’m very suprised to see every other matchups numbered like that it’s how I feel too” - so, good job, gief mainers;)) , only a couple of changes:

ZANGIEF proposed changes (gief on the left)
from Snake Eyez:

  • Adon: 5.5-4.5 to 5-5
    "because of his “1 inch” jaguar kick, it’s really safe on block can’t even be focus absorbed because it’s too quick"
    Seratna (adon player) - 6-4
    Sharin - 5-5
    Veggey - 6-4
    Meansaltine - 5.5-4.5 “his HK isnt as good as people say, it starts fast, but has a lot of recovery and is pretty easy to punish. You can focus air jaguar kicks for a big punish, and punish poorly spaced kicks with spd. You can also safejump his dp. I like this matchup!”

[media=youtube]Bt1TO51NlDY[/media]

  • Seth: 3-7 to 4-6 - Breaker ? what do you say ?
    "Seth can’t be 3-7, when I fight Sim and Sagat that feels like 3-7, i’d have to say 4-6 because of no more yoga sniper also Seth’s dp mixups are very risky If Gief has ultra 1 or super it’s a free punish for dp fadc dash forward."
    Veggey - 3-7
    Sharin - 3-7
    Meansaltine - 3-7 “This matchup is hell. I hate it. Seth has all of the tools. You really have to roll the dice with your ultra to win rounds in this matchup”

Itabashi vs Kazunoko
[media=youtube]UncWOfPVshI[/media]#!

more Itabashi vs Kazunoko
[media=youtube]zI2PUt4Y–A[/media]#!

Snake Eyez vs Onlinetony:
[media=youtube]dgkKrdGTjog[/media]#!

  • Fuerte: 5-5 to 4-6
    "El Fuerte is pretty tough for Gief mainly because of 2 things, 1 Fuertes ultra 2 stops alot of Giefs pressure especially when Gief gets a knock down and 2 Fuertes ultra 2 stops alot of Giefs escape options from Fuerte’s backflip air command throw sorry I forgot what it’s called but he has a nice trap on Gief were if Gief did not have ultra 2 then the matchup would be pretty laughable"
    iPeru - 5-5
    Sharin - 4-6 (made an argument)
    SacoJericho - 5-5
    Veggey - 4-6
  • Rufus: “I really don’t know what to say about Rufus, I do know that it’s not 6-4 lol”

I hope Machorhombus will share his oppinion, too.

Anyway, this is it, guys. bison and Gief are the last changes we have. With this the tier list is over, so let’s make an effort and do this right.