SSF4 Tier List Thread REBOOT Super + AE (Updated: 02-01-09)

Emanuelb · 2012-10-24T17:09:40.000Z

I also feel like I want to change Gief vs Rufus to 5-5, that set didn’t look at all like Gief had the advantage. Sure, Rufus can’t dare to try and overwhelm Gief because he’ll get killed, but his normals work amazingly in this matchup and he can really run the clock on Gief.

Regarding Zangief vs Rufus match:

This match is controversial.
Sharin: 6-4 gief
Veggey: 6-4 gief: "Focus attack dash forward absorbing Rufus s.hp, is a guarnateeed s.lk XX exhand. also if I as Zangief jump over a rufus when he does s.hp its alot of dmg with a jumpin combo. Rufus can aa, can play kinda footsies. But gief shuts down his best option, and can win on the ground vs. Rufus. Then it is Giefs mixups which are great on a meterless Rufus."
Vivaldi: 5-5: "Zangief is even because Rufus has divekick mobility to deal with zangiefs set ups, and reliable anti-airs to keep him from getting big jump in damage"
Fizzy (rufus player): 5-5 “rufus has the tools to solidly space gief and even when gief gets in its not a slaughter”.

I would like to hear more oppinions on this match.

Malvadisco · 2012-10-24T18:00:27.000Z

i do understand you azrael but i do not think that DP FADC is that complicated to deal with. its two stock of meter and you can punish that with u1 IIRC

also from memory blocked l2 FA of chun is +7 not +4

ugo_2u · 2012-10-24T18:08:38.000Z

no wonder I keep getting tagged

ugo_2u · 2012-10-24T18:21:20.000Z

I learnt that a blocked lv1 focus FADC vs gief is usually a bad idea. ask Justin Wong lol!

Vulpes · 2012-10-24T19:05:15.000Z

Please stop using DP for DashPunch. I was confused as heck because I kept reading that as SRK (DragonPunch).

ugo_2u · 2012-10-24T19:28:10.000Z

and I thought balrog had a hidden dragon punch

Malvadisco · 2012-10-24T20:44:36.000Z

DS then¿?

HeavensCloud · 2012-10-25T01:45:53.000Z

I can agree with Balrog beating Gief, but I would say it’s more 5.5 - 4.5, I feel like it’s a matchup where whoever gets the lifelead can lame out the other guy, but a blocked dash punch is easier to land and gets Balrog the lifelead, Gief still has options at the start of the match to try and get the lifelead himself, and that’s where Balrog gets into trouble since Gief’s defence is good enough to shut him down (in my experience), but ultimately, it’s easier for Rog to get it. I can like with 6-4 too, of course, Balrog’s defense is still better than Gief’s.

I also feel like I want to change Gief vs Rufus to 5-5, that set didn’t look at all like Gief had the advantage. Sure, Rufus can’t dare to try and overwhelm Gief because he’ll get killed, but his normals work amazingly in this matchup and he can really run the clock on Gief.

I also feel the need to say that I agree with padGief being better than stickGief, 360’s come out like nothing, Gief’s bnb’s are not really difficult to land on pad, staying silent helps a ton, macro lariat is easy to do and OS EX GH feels easier for me with the macro, and you’ll never get something like instant roundhouse when you’re trying to go for U2. Minimizes the mistakes and gives you things back.

I think it’s just more Justin Wong being amazing with Rufus. Gief takes away too many of Rufus’s tools for it to be considered even.

Malvadisco · 2012-10-25T03:14:13.000Z

JW`s rufus indeed is amazing <3

MachoRhombus · 2012-10-25T03:42:41.000Z

I think it’s just more Justin Wong being amazing with Rufus. Gief takes away too many of Rufus’s tools for it to be considered even.

Yeah, but that’s the thing. We have to consider the best level of play for making tier lists, and Justin Wong played that matchup in an extremely amazing fashion, Rufus can’t steamroll Zangief because that’d be nuts, sure, and that takes off tools from Rufus, but Rufus’s normals and specials work in a great way to nullify Gief’s attempts to get in, effectively striping him off some ways to get in. They both can lame the other character out and can really run the clock on the other, and with some luck, they both can comeback from it (considering Rufus can ultra from pretty much everything and Zangief’s comeback factor is still among the best in the game).

I don’t know, after seeing those matches I really don’t feel like it’s 5-5, I always felt that in my experience, when Rufus vs Zangief became a crazy footsie matchup it was mostly my inexperience and (somewhat) lack of skill, but to see the best Gief in the world (imo) struggling against the best Rufus in the world (imo), and see that they are going back and forth and no side is in a clear advantage, I feel like it’s time to revise it.

Veserius · 2012-10-25T04:22:24.000Z

why doesn’t someone just ask snake eyez

The_Breaker · 2012-10-25T04:57:56.000Z

Most people are probably just confused because Rufus footsies do suck but they happen to look nice when Wong is using them.

Don’t feel like coming up with numbers or going in depth right now, but…

Boxer/Seth
It is pretty bad. I might go over all my numbers again, just thinking about what buktooth and Ves were talking about. It’s very hard for Boxer but I don’t like the idea of saying he has a whole point over the Gouki MU (I think engimatic kind of said this himself, which is sorta contradicting? haha.) I don’t think either match ups really fit 6-4 or 5.5…but it’s really hard for me to say which match up is worse for him. Plus, unorthodox Boxer play actually changes the MU a bit…although Boxer still ends up cornered doing this eventually, so it’s still pretty bad.

Makoto/Seth
Tough to call. It’s like Abel in the sense that Seth can’t keep Makoto very long, but generally has better tools and runs a train on any knockdown. But more often than not, he gets killed trying to mix her up and falls apart fast if he gets knocked down. However, unlike Abel, a cornered Makoto is completely shut down by Seth’s OS DP. Walking slower than Seth is an accomplishment in itself, and as a result of this, she ends up being forced to take some risks to avoid getting too close to the corner. So…yeah. I’d probably go with strider’s numbers…

Juri/Seth
Actually, I think Juri wins this MU by a very small margin now. Most people really do play this MU wrong from what I’ve seen. Basically, Juri can play lame and keep Seth out fairly nicely until he has Ultra 1 stocked. She can either opt to just lame it out or punish any attempt at trying to match her zoning (generally, I think Juri is better off picking U1 and laming it out until Seth gets U1.) Once Seth has U1, Juri has to go on the offensive. Seth pretty much wins this part, but basically, Juri should just try to run offense without fear of the consequences. Most people do not do this and keep playing defensively. Once she has U1 and at least one bar, Seth has to dial back. To be perfectly honest, I’m giving Juri that small edge because of U1 almost exclusively. Seth is too big to deal with the shit Juri can do and he can’t cover enough of her options at once without risking a knockdown himself once she has that bar.

anybody/Yun
haven’t been practicing or keeping up with him because I’ve been focusing on Seth exclusively for a bit, so won’t comment on Yun until I go back to him later…

I think that’s all that got asked.

Shikyo · 2012-10-25T08:04:17.000Z

Yeah, but that’s the thing. We have to consider the best level of play for making tier lists, and Justin Wong played that matchup in an extremely amazing fashion, Rufus can’t steamroll Zangief because that’d be nuts, sure, and that takes off tools from Rufus, but Rufus’s normals and specials work in a great way to nullify Gief’s attempts to get in, effectively striping him off some ways to get in. They both can lame the other character out and can really run the clock on the other, and with some luck, they both can comeback from it (considering Rufus can ultra from pretty much everything and Zangief’s comeback factor is still among the best in the game).

I don’t know, after seeing those matches I really don’t feel like it’s 5-5, I always felt that in my experience, when Rufus vs Zangief became a crazy footsie matchup it was mostly my inexperience and (somewhat) lack of skill, but to see the best Gief in the world (imo) struggling against the best Rufus in the world (imo), and see that they are going back and forth and no side is in a clear advantage, I feel like it’s time to revise it.

This would assume even skill. I don’t see how Rufus normals are any better for keeping Zangief out than insert-character-x’s normals. I think that was more just Justin Wong being the better player, at least at footsies.

For tier lists you need to assume even skill, if the other player outplays the other, well… That’s not the best indicator

Emanuelb · 2012-10-25T10:19:04.000Z

This would assume even skill. I don’t see how Rufus normals are any better for keeping Zangief out than insert-character-x’s normals. I think that was more just Justin Wong being the better player, at least at footsies.

For tier lists you need to assume even skill, if the other player outplays the other, well… That’s not the best indicator

I think Snake Eyes can be considered at Justin’s level.

And Rufus cr. fierce is an amazing zoning tool ag. Gief, that not many chars have it.

why doesn’t someone just ask snake eyez

I would gladly do it - unfortunatelly I don’t know his id on srk (if he lurks around). I searched for Snakeeyes but nothing :(.

If someone can provide his id :rolleyes: I would be happy to ask him.

m16ghost · 2012-10-25T10:19:35.000Z

Re: Bison

Happy Medicine said this earlier in the year:

Bison’s hard matchups at high level IMO.

Guile 2-8
Honda 3.5-6.5
Deejay 4-6
Gief 4-6
Akuma 4.5-5.5
Cammy 4.5-5.5
Viper 4.5-5.5
Fei-Long 4.5-5.5
Chun 4.5-5.5

Everything else is even or better unless there’s something I’ve yet to see from a certain character.

Some explanations:

Spoiler

Guile literally only has to throw booms and press fierce. You’re going to lose over 25% if not more just getting him to the corner plus a lot of clock. After two reps of scissors you’re back out and he’s back to throwing boom/mashing fierce. Most Guile player suck (No offense to Guile players lol) they have poor defense and only use the character because he’s as easy mode as a character can get. If that’s the case THEN the matchup is 4-6 because the Guile is probably gonna do something stupid/ press a bad button and get blown up. However if itt’s someone like Kevin Landon who has great reactions, good spacing, and hard to crack defense then it becomes much harder.

Honda’s buttons beat Bisons and he has the damage and life advantages. He also has reliable AA’s while Bison is forced to stay on the ground unless you read a st. HP. st.MK is your only reliable footsie against Honda. Your scissors pressure virtually useless against him and sometimes. You have to outplay Honda 3x harder than he has to outplay you.

Deejay is like a lesser Guile. Yeah cr.strong rapes him on wakeup, but you have to get there first. DeeJay is another character like Guile that is played by bad players because he’s easy mode. Just with my experience against sub-par Deejay’s I can tell that against a top level Deejay with good spacing this match will be very tough. Slide beats DR, he can punish EXPC on block, random EX dread kicks beat Bison’s footsies forcing him to play scared and you have to take a lot of damage in chip getting up close. j.LK is also super annoying to deal with and gets him practically free pressure.

Cammy is manageable if you have strong footsies. Her ground game is ok, but Bison’s is much better. Keep it at a slow pace and once you get a lead play off of their mistakes. Once she get’s close it’s 2-8 in her favor lol. I have yet to play a Cammy that gave me any problems, so my opinion on this match may change. The unblockable is only an issue if you don’t have any meter. If you don’t have any meter with Bison you seriously need to work on your meter management skills. XD

Chun isn’t too bad, although I could be bias because I have lots of experience in that matchup and she’s one of my alternate characters. Zone her out with devil’s reverse to get meter early. ST.MK gives her problems and you can whiff punish all of her normals. Watch out for random sweeps and punish them. The match only becomes much of a problem when she has U1 and if the Chun player has a very strong ground game as they can use their walkspeed to walk outside the range of your st.MK and sweep it on reaction. St. MP can also be a problem. You can also take the walk forward and block approach since at some point she’s gonna corner herself and then she’s done unless she lands a random EX SBK.

Dhalsim is 5-5, I use to have problems with the match when I first played FChamp, but I got to go really hard in the lab with Jason Cole and now I feel this is one of my stronger matchups. From fullscreen Dhalsim can do nothing but build meter. Focus limbs and get you some meter until her corners you. Keep blocking those fierces, you get a little meter everytime you block one. Don’t worry about him getting super. As long as you win the first round you can afford to eat it. Try to avoid eating it unless it’s for the kill in round 2. That way in round 3 you have a full stick of butter and he has nothing. From there it’s your match to win.

Emanuelb · 2012-10-25T11:02:37.000Z

Happy Medicine just replied to me with his numbers for bison :). I will post the changes later.

Azza · 2012-10-25T14:47:51.000Z

Cool Emanuelb, be very interested to read them.

Veserius · 2012-10-25T17:27:08.000Z

I would gladly do it - unfortunatelly I don’t know his id on srk (if he lurks around). I searched for Snakeeyes but nothing :(.

If someone can provide his id :rolleyes: I would be happy to ask him.

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?members/oxsnake-eyezxo.23672/

m2thebrady · 2012-10-25T19:10:49.000Z

I think Snake Eyes can be considered at Justin’s level.

And Rufus cr. fierce is an amazing zoning tool ag. Gief, that not many chars have it.

I would gladly do it - unfortunatelly I don’t know his id on srk (if he lurks around). I searched for Snakeeyes but nothing :(.

If someone can provide his id :rolleyes: I would be happy to ask him.

Rufus st.HP for anti air also works well for zoning gief. I think Rufus does a good job keeping him at bay with his normals but it can be tough for him to run his mix ups on gief, meanwhile giefs shenanigans on Rufus are really damaging. Think gief might win if only slightly.

Nybb · 2012-10-25T21:12:33.000Z

Happy Medicine sounds hella salty about some of those matchups, haha.