18701

Excelent :). If anybody have things like this - please post it. I looked all over for Hiro and Happy, but I didnt know their ids.
I will contact both, too see what I can get. I contacted gagapa, but nothing (i’m not sure if he still comes on srk). Kim haven’t been around for half a year.

But when I asked about knowledgeable people, I didn’t mean top players necesarly. I mean, if they are top players, that’s even better, but I’m scouting guys who knows the game, their character, and knows what they are talking about. But I don’t know who mains who and I don’t have time to lurks all chars subforums.
We also would need more mains for Yang, Fei Long, Hawk, Oni, Hakan, balrog (and anybody whose oppinion is worthy).

Anyway : for Azza: I’m curious if you have experience in Bison vs Dan match. This one was kinda controversial. Ati called it 6-4 bison, UltraDavid and Swedish Chef 5-5, and Ixion 4.5-5.5/ 4-6 Dan.
This is what Ixion said: “The Bison MU is interesting. This is one f those MU where the opponent’s playing style really makes a difference. Once Dan has got his pressure against Bison, Bison is somewhat screwed. He has no reliable crouching normal that either dodges or stuffs Dan’s L Danku. Dan is godlike on Bison’s wake up; if a L Danku is spaced correctly, it will dodge all of Bison’s wake up moves, and sometimes -beat- EX Stomp. If Dan does L KRK FADC, this will happen: If Bison does EX Psycho Crusher, the L KRK will beat it clean and no FADC will come out, if Bison does EX Scissor Kick, the L KRK will beat that clean and no FADC will come out, if he does EX Stomp, it will beat that clean and no FADC will come out, and you will have time to do U2 after all these. If Bison does nothing, then you get a blocked KRK FADC. Bison should also be afraid of teleporting backwards because of H Danku. I would almost want to have this matchup 6.5 - 3.5. Then again… if Bison starts turtling, the matchup can turn into 4-6 or even 3-7 if he uses st.MK and st-HK like 80 & of the time. I would say this combination of aspects result in a 6-4 MU. Maybe 5.5-4.5. 4-6 is not fair for Bison.”

Btw, m16, I understand you are a bison mainer, too :rolleyes:.

18702

If you can get the players listed by m16ghost to give you their opinions I obviously go with them ahead of mine.

Heres how I would rate his match ups going by the order of your tier list with Bisons ratings on the left side.
If I list N/A I don’t have enough experience to form an opinion against good level players.

Cammy 4:6
Akuma 5:5
Adon 5:5
Seth 4:6
Fei Long: 4.5:5.5
C.Viper 6:4
Abel 4:6
E.Honda 3.5:6.5
Blanka 5:5
Sakura 5.5:4.5
Vega 5:5
Ibuki 6.5:3.5
Chun-Li 4:6
Ken 5:5
Makato 5:5
Balrog 4.5:5.5
Guile 3:7
Elf N/A (leaning towards Bisons favour)
Rose 6.3:3.5
Yun: N/A
Ryu: 5:5
Juri: N/A (leaning towards Bisons favour)
Rufus 5.5:4.5
Sagat 5:5
Gen 5:5
Cody 4.5:5.5
Dee Jay 6-4
Evil Ryu N/A
Guy 6:4
Zangief 4:6
Dhalsim 5:5
Dudley 6:4
Gouken 6:4
Hakan N/A (leaning towards Bisons favour)
Oni N/A
T.Hawk 6:4
Dan 6:4

18703

I don’t see Dan as a tough match up for Bison. Bison can out footsie him all day and can anti air him. Dans fireball is no threat. Its hardly a tool that can force Bison to come to him. Bison’s SK pressure works fine here. Bison can use his fake safe jump set ups off a throw or safe jump Dan’s 5 frame DP.

As for Dan on Bison’s wake up what Ixion said is true to an extent but it no different to what Bison has to deal with other shoto characters. Its still a 50:50 once Bison has meter because he can mix up block/teleport/EX.PC. So its a 50:50, teleport will make Dan’s KRY whiff and if Bison uses the closer teleport he will get a punish. If Bisons EX.DR’s he will escape Dan Kicks. Aside from which whats, so bad about blocking KRY FADC, Bison can reversal out during a block string, tick throw attempt. Dan can’t punish EX.PC on block.

Dan Kick pressure is good but I don’t think he compensates for Bisons footsies, SK pressure.

18704

About Dan v Dictator, it’s a pretty even matchup. Dan doesn’t want to play this as a zoning matchup because as Azza says, he loses in footsies and his fireball is crappy. This is more about Dan getting in and Bison not letting him. Dan has this interesting two-prong entrance that he doesn’t really get against most characters of mk/hk danku or jump air normal/lk danku. Usually mk/hk danku is a sucky option because lots of characters can blow it up on reaction with dragon punches or ex this or that or even with normals, but Bison can’t do that unless Dan is an idiot and tries it when Bison has charge or is far enough away that st hk will work. And while oftentimes Dan is dumb to put himself at -2 after entering with mk/hk danku, Bison’s post-danku options usually aren’t dangerous enough to make Dan worry about it. A little farther away than that mk/hk danku range, Dan can jump and mix up with jump lk, jump hk, air lk danku, each of which requires a different response from Bison. Bison can stand just a bit closer than that and antiair st hk all of those options, but then that’s the range that Dan can enter with mk/hk danku. So it’s an interesting matchup where Bison has to keep on his toes and both players have to understanding spacings and options pretty well. Bison can definitely keep Dan out, but it’s not easy. Once Dan gets his pressure going he can do good things on Bison, but unfortunately for Dan he can’t punish a point blank blocked ex psycho, so Bison can get away if he has meter and guesses that Dan won’t be looking for the escape. And as for Bison’s pressure, his corner stuff is always good, he just has to take the care he always has to take against characters with usable dragon punches.

Meh I think it’s pretty even.

18705

Hmm, a lot of changes. I will post more tomorrow, but for now:

  • Cammy: very controversial. Julpero, Heavens and Dafeetlee called it 5-5. Alioune and Shadowos - 4-6. I would like to hear why do you think Bison lose.

  • Adon: this is what Shadow said: “i don’t know why this isn’t straight 6-4 for bison. s.rh and general footsies wreaks havoc on him. the most adon has going for him in this MU is that he can punish most of bison’s escape with his ultra, and that he has a deejay like cross up’ vortex if he ever scores a kd”.

  • Viper: Shadow: “im more comfortable calling this one 5-5. bison wins footsies and mostly trashes her wakeup but viper just does too much damage. i can’t tell you how many times ive lost because i stuck out a s.mk only for her to raw ex-seismo>u1 to melt off, what? 450?”

  • Honda: Cuongster called it 6-4 bison: “a lot of people think it’s a good MU for Honda but definitely NOT : Dic can wait ALL day for you to come and just cheap you all day. Also his stHK beats every Honda’s poke”. And

[media=youtube]IeyIJu404JE[/media]

isn’t 3.5 a little too much ? The reast tomorrow. And guys, don’t forget of Juri.

18706

About SK pressure, Dan’s crMP beats all Bison’s normals after SK so Dan has not to worry about it too much. LP Krk beats all options on Bison’s wakeup unless of course he just blocks or backdashes…but that’s the whole point of Dan’s game isn’t it? Force the opponent to backdash or to block to run a train on him… Ex PC tries to get out of the corner are punishable by EX Danku. Teleports are almost useless because of pursuit Dankus. Have you ever played against a half decent Dan?
ps: I agree with David, 5-5.

18707

Cammy
Against Cammy Bison has the advantage of 50 more health and better footsies. Its not completely free on the ground. C.MK buffered to drill is pretty decent and fast but he does have the upper hand here. If he can work her to the corner he can work his SK pressure once more. However he has to be very wary of jump back Ex.Cannon Strikes. Bison has good set ups off a throw, but experienced Cammy players know the way out.

But for the most part Cammy should be not playing footsies and rely on the fact that Bison can’t consistently anti air her because of the fact he needs pretty exact spacing to stuff her J.HK, but there is pretty much no anti air option for Dive Kick and none for EX.Dive kick. Bison also find it difficult to go air to air against her because of the different jump arcs of the two character with Cammy’s being much lower. He really needs to make a read and if he makes it wrong he will take a DP or get combo-ed when he lands which leads into Cammy’s oki game. I feel any time Cammy wants she just needs to go into the air and unless she’s insanely predictable he’s not going be able to stuff it or avoid forever.

On the other hand Bison can never jump at Cammy. Most of her normals will anti air him clean. CL.LP will stuff his cross ups.

Like against most characters once Cammy’s in she’s pretty devastating. From a front jump OS drill eliminates backdash and teleport and OS Cannon Spike beats Bison’s 4 Ex Reversals clean, her OS’s are probably the cleanest OS’s used against Bison. But better than risking a 50:50 guess with an OS is getting her mix up game going off a drill knockdown. She can cross you up or delay a Cannon Strike to not cross up or cross up (or not cross up but she lands on the other side of you anyway, my head hurts thinking about it) but her J.LK cross up wrecks Bisons teleport inputs and breaks his charge. If he DR’s out she can simple walk after it and S.HP or DP it. When she has U1 loaded all Bisons options become insanely risky. She can react to EX.PC and DR with U1 and OS U1 against teleport (which she won’t need to do if he she Bison in the corner, simple block or bashdash against his airborne reversals). Up close Cammy has excellent frame traps and Bison doesn’t have an OS to go with crouch tech to stuff Ex.Cannon Strike, Bison has to rely on a kamikaze S.LK to beat that. Bison is pretty much dead in the corner without meter and dead in the corner when Cammy has U1 stocked.

In general the damage output is also well in her favour. Her natural game also leads her to build meter alot faster than Bison.

Adon
Adon I feel balances out well. Bison again has 50 more health and can out footsies Adon. He has again set ups and safe jumps to be used from throws. SK pressure works again although he has to be weary of neutral jumps (applies to many match ups). Jag kick is a good moveand Adon pokes are decent so again its not all Bisons way on the ground but overall on the ground Bison wins

The air again is trouble some for Bison because of a very vertical jump arc and the Adon’s ability to change it with Jag Kick. But its not as bad as dealing with Cammy, Bison can focus fish any whiff neutral jumps to bait air jag kicks. And at certain positions he can anti air his normal jump ins. Bison can bait out Jag tooths from mid screen with jump back HP for big damage, or stuff it with roundhouse if he’s full screen away on reaction. Adon has strong pressure on wake up but Bison again makes it 50:50 with meter until Adon gets his U1, then Bison has to suck up the pressure. But Adon’s pressure and ambigious cross ups while good are no where near as hard to defend against as Cammy’s pressure.

Viper
Viper. Bison has 100 more health, owns the ground completely, she has no footsies. He also wins air to air which is unusual for Bison, he’s hell attack owns all Vipers angled air normals although her super jump is a different story. She struggles with his pressure close up. Her wake up is bad she has to take pretty big risks. On the flip side of the coin Bison reduces her burn kick mix up to a 50:50 with meter. Anti airing in this match up is not really an issue for Bison. Vipers don’t approach with normal jumps for the most part.

If Viper can get the mix up going on a meter-less Bison she can wreck havoc and like Bison in Super Turbo she has a big comeback/random factor to her. But if Bison players solidly he will win more often than not.

Honda
Honda has 50 more health and has much better damage output.
Bison’s only shot in this match up is get the life lead at the start due to his superior footsies and force Honda to come onto to him. Its his best shot but unreliable because Bison has no reliable AA against J.LP/J.MP and Honda is incredible strong once he gets in. HHS/Ochio/Ex.Headbutt/Buttslam mix up is pretty hard for Bison to get out of. Honda can cross up Bison with J.MK to stuff Ex.PC. NJ.HP to stuff DR wake up and he can move it as well to make Ex.Stomp whiff. Ex.Headbutt as a meaty stuffs Bisons horizontal reversals and is safe from his vertical ones. He can’t punish Ex.PC on block from point blank but he’s best off just sitting a little bit back and reacting to Bisons wake up or space himself so he can punish Ex.PC on block with S.HK or C.LP xx Hands. The main difficult for Honda is getting into jump range and its Bison chance to increase the life lead. He can also run away with EX.PC

Headbutt is a good high priority move Honda can throw out randomly. His light and ex.version being safe. The others require Bison to have charge to punish.
Honda’s AA’s are much more reliable. S.HP is good for him when he doesn’t have charge. Headbutt both LP and EX is bulletproof.
Honda wins air to air. His Jump backs are particularly good.

If Honda gets the life lead and gets meter, Bison can do nothing its like Guile with macro’s. He can’t get in. Ex.Headbutt counters everything. It stuffs Psycho crushers and scissors kicks, its beats DR empty or otherwise. Jump ins are stuffed. DR meter build shut down. Stomp is stuffed. Tick throws are stuffed (god luck getting even that close), pokes are stuffed, its safe on block and Bison can’t even chip is back safely. Bisons only shot is to bait it out and guess lucky. Honda can also mix in C.LP buffered to HHS if Bison gets really close. He can sit there, Fort Knox would be easier to crack. 2 Guiles would be easier to get in on.
Honda’s wake up is incredible strong. Techable knockdowns get Bison nothing. Headbutt and Buttslam get him out of danager, Hard knockdowns at least allow safe cross ups, but Honda’s will often do Ex.Headbutt and take an OS S.MK and the 70 damage to get out. Bison can do a later cross up to stuff the reversal headbutt but Honda can counter this with a none reversal EC. Headbutt. If Bison can get him to the corner he can punish both of Honda’s wake up options if he stands block (which leaves him open to C.LP or throws).

As for Dogura Mike Ross match up. I felt Dogura had a few tricks that Mike didn’t see before but I also feel Mike didn’t play lame enough.
I think most Bison players over on the Bison forum will agree this match is probably Bison’s second worst match up.
Gagapa did mention to a Honda player I know after playing him that he feels the match is in Honda’s favour too.

18708

Its not an uncommon scenario for Bison players to have to deal with in many match ups. After being pushed out of C.LK range following the second LK.SK alot of characters have normals that stuff SK and his normals because they are faster than Bisons and are within range to counter hit him . Bison players simply wait it out or walk back a little and try to whiff punish it or possibly dash in after. That is an integral part of SK pressure.

Dan’s OS are no different from other shoto’s OS’s. He’s got nothing unique in this department. Bison will just block when he as no meter because he knows there is an OS that covers teleport which is common in many match ups. But as soon as he meter Dan has to guess which OS to use making a 50:50 between Dan getting another knock down or Bison getting out and resetting the zoning game. Teleport will also be occasional used when to get out of block strings when at mid screen. Its situational but far from useless. What do you mean Ex.PC is punishable with EX.Danku, I went to the lab to find every punish in the game for EX.PC some time ago and Dan has nothing to punish it when he blocks EX.PC at point blank range.

I have played a few good Dan’s but I wouldn’t say its a common match up for me. But the stuff your pointing out is applicable to a whole load of characters against Bison.

18709

You’re kidding me right? Online shenanigans aren’t going to cut it here. jab then divekick really? That shit aint safe. And you want to know why people don’t use c.mk xx lk axe kick? Because that shit is like -9 or something. NOTHING you’re saying is innovative. Noones doing what you’re saying because they are fucking retarded. Fucking E.Ryu boards sometimes.

18710

eh ?

18711

Rose vs Dictator is a 5-5.

And I’m not giving out my reasons why.

18712

It always feel like it’s in Bison’s favor. Then again it all comes down to who can take advantage of the life lead it has. This match up is extremely lame in my opinion. Even if its on theory even (which sounds reasonable) it still feels like the Rose player has to work harder. It’s mentally draining especially against a high level Bison. I straight up hate this match up not going to lie.

18713

^There’s a lot of tech Rose has to beat out Bison’s tools - I’m just not willing to share all my tech with everyone lol.

18714

I say its 5-5 too

18715

I’ll just watch your videos and your showings on streams. You are famous after all. You can’t hide tech forever. Also the best tech you can have against Bison its called…patience. It’s a good asset to have against him IIRC. :stuck_out_tongue:

18716

Yes I main Bison, but my matchup experience is really limited to just a few characters, since I generally don’t play online, and I don’t generally presume to be anywhere near a high-level player. I could write up my analysis, but it would take me a bit of time. In general my opinions aren’t all that different from the current list though.

From the matchups I am most familiar with, I would say that Bison loses to:
Seth
Gief
Honda
Abel
Cammy
Guile
Yun (at least in AE, I honestly haven’t played this in 2012)

He slightly loses to: (~4.5)
Balrog
Ryu

Even:
Cody
Akuma
Rufus
Adon

He slightly beats:
Sagat
Sakura
Gouken
Yang
Blanka (but I haven’t played this since in 2012)

He definitely beats:
Ibuki

I used to play sk’s Rose (RIP) in super, and that felt pretty even, but I haven’t played that match since. I also generally have trouble with the local fuertes in my area, but I generally attribute that to… fuerte.

The rest I don’t have an opinion on.

18717

I didn’t say punishable at point blank, the trick is to bait ExPC by walking backwards just milliseconds before Bison’s wakeup and you will be able to punish it. And no the stuff I pointed out doesn’t apply to a whole load of characters. Especially the pursuit of dankicks that can also limit Bison’s sweep. Fei and Ryu, to name two, cannot do that with their tatsu/chicken wing. In this match Bison has to put himself into the corner and everytime he wants to go out he has to accept to lose some life in return.

18718

Again a few other characters can increase there punishment options against Bison Ex.PC by moving back (such as Cammy with drill), but doing that decreases the pressure on Bisons wake up somewhat. Aside from which Bison doesn’t have to use EX.PC on his wake up he can block a a meaty take some pressure and use EX.PC to get out during a block string or pressure where this opponent won’t be in range to punish.

What do you mean the pursuit of Dankicks can limit sweep? Bison sweep is not a factor in most other match ups, its used as random poke or as means to advance with charge, its not an escape move, do you mean some other move?.
Sorry I’m not following what your saying. But Bison is awful when in the corner against Fei Long. Its much harder to get out against Fei because Ex.PC is a free punish for Rekka.

Against Rose I just feel Bisons wins at close and mid ranges. Superior footsies. More health. Roses wake up is poor, Bisons wake up is difficult for Rose to deal with. Her frireball is weak and really vunerable to U2 even when she is shielded with her U2. Both characters can anti air each. Her damage output isn’t great either. Her focus attack has poor range to counter pokes. Maybe I’m missing something but iI do feel its one of Bisons easier match ups.

18719

Bison vs Gen: 5-5

To me this match-up is time dependent, This is one match that Bison aims to end quick and fast, sure at mid range Bison can torment Gen with sMK and sHK and light SK, he has to do everything to keep Gen out, once Gen gets in sMP range then the tide turns a little, with Gen trying to keep bison from getting out and anticipating ex PC. the longer the match drags then the more advantage Gen gets, once he builds meter (super and ultra) then Bison is usually cornered, he can no longer headstomp or devils reverse without losing a huge chunk of life, and also ex PC on wake up becomes even more risky,

Bison has no solid way of AA Gen crane HP without trade so he has to play smart most of the time. Both characters lack strong wake up options without EX so they will try to avoid being knocked down.

Finally the key to this matchup is Knowledge of the little gimmicks here and there, Gen has 4 unblockable setups on Bison and numerous cross up setups that are mad ambiguous, if Bison doesn’t see it coming then its pretty much a one sided match.

18720

Yeah that pretty much describes why I believe it’s a 5-5

I meant that the “random poke” sweep cannot be thrown out to advance against Dan because HK danku will hit it and you don’t even need to be precise in timing it. It can be done against Fei instead, as he has no way to intercept it during its active frames but can just flamekick it on reaction (very difficult). Fei corner pressure imho is less threatening than Dan’s, if any, it’s much less damagin. I main both, and only them.