SSF4 Makoto Thread: Return of the Mak!

Colino · 2010-02-20T06:33:57.000Z

Sasaki:

You said it isn’t part of her real weakness, which, in my eyes, is not true at all. Not having a good footsie and zoning game (which is also the walkspeed’s fault) is a weakness that is just as true as shitty wakeup.

Saying that zoning “pretty much only applies to characters with a fireball” is also wrong, by the way.

Again, I’m not saying having a bad walking speed is good or anything even close to that. What I’m saying is that I believe she has far worse problems than that, mainly the fact that she sucks on wake-up, she doesn’t really have a corner escape move and she’s overall bad at reversals. All of these seem to me far superior problems than slow walk speed. She didn’t have a footies or zoning game in third strike either, so I didn’t even take that into consideration.

Fireballs are really good in SF4, I didn’t say that characters without them can’t zone, I simply stated that the best zoners have fireballs. We’re pretty much agreeing here, I’m just saying that she has worse problems than walkspeed and she doesn’t have tools to make up for those problems, but she does have tools to make up for her poor walk speed.

I just hope Karakusa comes out really fast.

ProdigyOne · 2010-02-20T06:43:47.000Z

Ok… I just thought of the magic question which worries me to no end with Makoto.

What are gonna be her wakeup options? From the looks of it, she has ZERO!

I mean… I was just playing third strike and her options were bad… now imagine the constant jump-in Ryu’s on wakeup in SSF4!

What is she to do?

ProdigyOne · 2010-02-20T06:45:12.000Z

Ok… I just thought of the magic question which worries me to no end with Makoto.

What are gonna be her wakeup options? From the looks of it, she has ZERO!

I mean… I was just playing third strike and her options were bad… now imagine the constant jump-in Ryu’s on wakeup in SSF4!

What is she to do?

Anemone · 2010-02-20T06:45:45.000Z

The summary of the discussion for a while now

“This rush down character has bad defenses. What is this?!?!?!?!?!”

Oh SRK, Serlin would like to have a talk with you … . . .

Colino · 2010-02-20T06:46:20.000Z

ProdigyOne:

Ok… I just thought of the magic question which worries me to no end with Makoto.

What are gonna be her wakeup options? From the looks of it, she has ZERO!

I mean… I was just playing third strike and her options were bad… now imagine the constant jump-in Ryu’s on wakeup in SSF4!

What is she to do?

backdash and get away!

dwd · 2010-02-20T06:51:53.000Z

c.lk pokes, into hayate

Ladon · 2010-02-20T06:56:10.000Z

we have to wait to see the difference in properties of certain moves to make any guess on how her wakeup game is gonna play.

chances are we won’t see anything to change her from her old gameplay in terms of improvements, but seeing kara have an EX version is a sign of some hope for a solid wakeup game.

Arcane_Arcane · 2010-02-20T06:56:39.000Z

ProdigyOne:

Ok… I just thought of the magic question which worries me to no end with Makoto.

What are gonna be her wakeup options? From the looks of it, she has ZERO!

I mean… I was just playing third strike and her options were bad… now imagine the constant jump-in Ryu’s on wakeup in SSF4!

What is she to do?

Ex Fukiage potentially?

We have no clue what Capcom will decide to do with Makoto. They know she could have potential big weakness and they might address those. They know her 3s self doesnt fit in very well in 3s, so im sure they will make adjustments.

hexidecimal · 2010-02-20T06:57:38.000Z

ProdigyOne:

Ok… I just thought of the magic question which worries me to no end with Makoto.

What are gonna be her wakeup options? From the looks of it, she has ZERO!

I mean… I was just playing third strike and her options were bad… now imagine the constant jump-in Ryu’s on wakeup in SSF4!

What is she to do?

Pretty much have two options. In the corner, EX Fukiage and pray to god it works. Not in corner back dash, although her back dash was pretty bad in 3S. The only other option is to hope they try a throw on wake up and tech it.

I guess that is three…meh whatever.

Arc-rail · 2010-02-20T07:11:05.000Z

Sasaki:

You said it isn’t part of her real weakness, which, in my eyes, is not true at all. Not having a good footsie and zoning game (which is also the walkspeed’s fault) is a weakness that is just as true as shitty wakeup.

Saying that zoning “pretty much only applies to characters with a fireball” is also wrong, by the way.

ssjbrydon:

and 3rd strikes gameplay wasn’t based around footsies either…

jeez some of you “potential” makoto players are as blind as a bike pedal. all you have to do is look at what the top tier have and ask yourself did or will my “potential” character succeed in these categories? its obvious she is gonna lack the requirements (great blockstrings, easy combos into ultra, good health…etc) based on her 3rd strike character. i doubt much is gonna change. you really think using dash punch is a reliable method to advance across the screen? her footsies were terrible in 3rd strike, i’d love to see you guys trying to get into a zoning contest with her slow c.lk, slow walk speed and short c.jab while fighting balrog or ryu…you guys are hilarious.

wake up fanboys and open your damn eyes.

It’s hard to judge anything from what we know, but I’m personally surprised from what I’ve seen and read as to how much she seems to have retained from her original form. Her options all seem to be present, and they were fairly simple but effective. Dash-under resets and kara-specials are certainly still possible in the SF4 engine. And now that we know you can jump cancel Abare Tosanami, she should still have at least something close to her best juggle combos. The only thing left is to see how well her ultras are integrated into the SF4 combo system.

The thing that has to be mentioned here is that Makoto isn’t really a conventional character, and I don’t think you can really apply the conventional rules for what makes good footsies or what makes a top-tier SF4 character. If you look at the SF4 character roster, there weren’t really many pure close-range fighters with a varied toolset, so the top-tiers weren’t really tested against a character like Makoto.

SF4 lacks airtight blockstrings, but Makoto doesn’t need those as much as, say, Cammy. Blocking is unsafe against Makoto because her overhead, low, and throw options are all dangerous. And karakusa is her hitconfirm, she shouldn’t necessarily need a good jab for that like most SF4 characters.

I don’t really agree with the comparisons to Abel. What must be understood is that Makoto in 3s was essentially Zangief with rocket boots. Work hard to get control of the fight and you should have all the tools you need to make any opponent afraid of your options.

tylerzd · 2010-02-20T07:38:59.000Z

hexidecimal:

Pretty much have two options. In the corner, EX Fukiage and pray to god it works. Not in corner back dash, although her back dash was pretty bad in 3S. The only other option is to hope they try a throw on wake up and tech it.

I guess that is three…meh whatever.

Block.

Colino · 2010-02-20T07:41:07.000Z

Arc-rail:

It’s hard to judge anything from what we know, but I’m personally surprised from what I’ve seen and read as to how much she seems to have retained from her original form. Her options all seem to be present, and they were fairly simple but effective. Dash-under resets and kara-specials are certainly still possible in the SF4 engine. And now that we know you can jump cancel Abare Tosanami, she should still have at least something close to her best juggle combos. The only thing left is to see how well her ultras are integrated into the SF4 combo system.

The thing that has to be mentioned here is that Makoto isn’t really a conventional character, and I don’t think you can really apply the conventional rules for what makes good footsies or what makes a top-tier SF4 character. If you look at the SF4 character roster, there weren’t really many pure close-range fighters with a varied toolset, so the top-tiers weren’t really tested against a character like Makoto.

SF4 lacks airtight blockstrings, but Makoto doesn’t need those as much as, say, Cammy. Blocking is unsafe against Makoto because her overhead, low, and throw options are all dangerous. And karakusa is her hitconfirm, she shouldn’t necessarily need a good jab for that like most SF4 characters.

I don’t really agree with the comparisons to Abel. What must be understood is that Makoto in 3s was essentially Zangief with rocket boots. Work hard to get control of the fight and you should have all the tools you need to make any opponent afraid of your options.

Yea that makes sense. (Pun intended )

I do think Makoto is more similair to Zangief than Abel because of Karakusa. I like how you specify that as her hit confirm. I hadn’t thought of that but it’s true.

Has anyone confirmed which of her moves break armor? I hope she has a few so that she won’t have problems with focuses.

Killer_Jigglypuff · 2010-02-20T07:43:20.000Z

Give Hayate Armor break.

…

What? It’d be no worse than Tiger Knee, lol

ShinobiBrown · 2010-02-20T07:44:13.000Z

I recall reading that her Oroshi is her armor breaker?

Colino · 2010-02-20T07:46:40.000Z

ShinobiBrown:

I recall reading that her Oroshi is her armor breaker.

Oroshi is good. EX Oroshi comes out really fast. You can punish a focus with that…

I don’t think Hayate will break armor because it comes out really fast. But if it does… cool

Tresjin · 2010-02-20T07:57:50.000Z

We’ve already seen Hayate hitting a focus and not breaking it, in the trailer. EX Hayate maybe.

marcusg · 2010-02-20T08:01:28.000Z

I pray that her ex oroshi (i think thats the overhead attack) is very fast. I sometimes use it as an antiair. It also good for mindgames. I also hope her ex j.qcb k can be executed early without jumping very low off the ground

WaInut · 2010-02-20T08:04:26.000Z

Tresjin:

We’ve already seen Hayate hitting a focus and not breaking it, in the trailer. EX Hayate maybe.

IIRC if a regular version doesn’t break focus EX doesn’t break focus either right? Unless EX Hayate now hits twice for some reason.

Laban · 2010-02-20T08:11:27.000Z

EX Karakusa has the potential to become a good reversal option against an overly aggressive player that loves getting in close and meatying. It all depends on her hitbox and if she could be meatied at all during her reversal ex karakusa. If the opponent tries to go for the jump/cross up late, then EX fukiage or lp fukiage could be an option. Against a seemingly safe jump, Option Select EX Karakusa seems to be a better option. If it’s fast enough on whiff and the opponent baits it out with a second jump, Makoto might be able to dash out. Like in 3s, Dive Kicks will shit on Makoto in this sense.

On another note, it’ll be a difficult match for Makoto against passive-aggressive players that just say out side of her reversal options on wake up. Unless we can confirm she has a tool around fireballs, she’s going to be trapped without much options. Trade DP with a HK or EX Tsurugi? It could reset the situation to neutral game if the trade gives hard-untechable knockdown to the opponent that Shoryu/TigerUpper/JetUpper/etc. and Makoto techs from the trade.

Makoto has to set the momentum at the start of the round and make the opponents do what she wants him/her to do by forcing on the spot decisions; she makes use of her options selects, st.lk feints by kara into overhead or throw, etc. She has the tools for locking down the opponent. Once the momentum is shifted against her, she just simply doesn’t have enough adequate tools to get back in as far as we know. It’s just throwing dice and making calculated guesses; pressing buttons even.

hexidecimal · 2010-02-20T08:51:44.000Z

Colino:

Oroshi is good. EX Oroshi comes out really fast. You can punish a focus with that…

I don’t think Hayate will break armor because it comes out really fast. But if it does… cool

I hope EX hayate has armor though I don’t think it will. EX Hayate seems to come out even faster, has more range and knocks down. Armor seems unlikely.