Genuine question, why are people overly concerned with how far (if any) the offensive hitbox protrudes the vulnerable box on non-AA normals?
I’m sure people are just going to say ‘because of teh footsies’ but why? I can’t see how startup and range aren’t the only important properties during footsies. The only time it matters if the box ‘protects’ the vulnerable one is if you’re hitting a character whos hitboxes are physically moving into your attack (i.e stuffing a blanka ball etc.)
Why would you be spacing to be hitting limb-to-limb where such a hitbox layout would matter? As an example, you move out of range, they whiff a normal, you punish the recovery (i.e no active hitbox but still outstretched vulnerable hitbox on the limb or their actual main body)
Obviously AA’ing it’s a different story and you want as much protrusion as possible. On a side note, how many characters have downward facing jump attacks where the offensive box protrudes the vulnerable one (most are recessed back)
Because in some cases, a good or the best option to deal with a character’s normal is to throw out one of your own when it wouldn’t normally hit… unless the aforementioned character sticks his out in which case it’ll lose. A good example imho is Zangief’s s.LK vs Ryu’s c.MK. He can throw it out at a range where it’d otherwise whiff and buffer EX GH to beat c.MK and get a knockdown. Otherwise all he has is c.MK (Which is garbage overall) and s.MK (Where it was horrible on hit and block, at least in SF4).
Surely then you would just need the speed of s.lk to beat .cmk as Ryu wouldn’t be spacing his c.mk to hit foot-to-foot of your attack, you’d be hitting his outstretched limb (that’s not yet active)?
No. Notice c.LPs (Not even Boxer’s) wouldn’t beat c.MK at its optimum range. It’s not just a matter of speed, it’s how the moves hitboxes interact, so those red parts sticking out can make more difference then just how fast the move is. Note that you won’t always be doing the move at just the right time, either. s.LK more or less beats c.MK outright, not because of speed or punishing a whiff but because of how the moves basically “interact.” Also note that Ryu can at least theoretically stick out c.MP at a range where it otherwise wouldn’t touch Gief to beat out s.LK. That’s because Ryu’s c.MP doesn’t have a lot of range, but it more or less dominates the small area that it covers (Not regarding invincibility of course). This of course isn’t the end-all be-all of normals in footsies (Boxer’s c.HK is a wonderful normal, even though priority-wise it’ll lose to many many things), but depending on the match-up and players it can play a major role.
Was there ever a definitive answer on whether a throw beats a hit or visa versa when they appear on the same frame? Most people seem to think a hit will beat a throw, but I am not too sure.
The reason I ask is because Bison gets thrown out of EX Psycho Crusher on occasion, but he’s only vulnerable to ground throws for one frame, which is his first active (14th) frame. He’s totally invulnerable on startup, and he’s considered in the air on the 15th frame. Considering the initial hitbox looks like: http://i41.tinypic.com/34zn6v4.jpg (3rd picture), it seems highly unlikely that Bison is getting out ranged by a throw.
This implies that a throw out-prioritizes a hit when they “trade”. Or maybe throws beat projectiles, I don’t know.
I’m still not sure I’m with you, bare with me on this…
If Ryu hits c.mk at max distance the only thing that will beat it is a move that becomes active sooner and is also in range (few moves exist admittedly). The arrangement of the hitboxes won’t make a difference, there are no vulnerable boxes stuck out along Ryu’s leg before the move becomes active (to hit with a shorter range move like c.lk etc) Only on its recovery.
If Giefs s.lk is in range and he hits the button the same time Ryu hits c.mp, which is also in range then they’ll trade surely as both are active on frame 4?
When Ryu’s c.MK has already come out (As in, during its active frames) there’s actually a vulnerable part above part of his leg. That’s what Gief’s s.LK is hitting and other moves like c.MK can overlap with to beat/trade with it.
Also, it seems like you’re assuming everything will be done at the exact same time, which doesn’t take active frames into account. Ryu can theoretically stick his c.MP out early, and thanks to the relatively fat red box sticking outside of his vulnerable area and the active frames (Not to mention where exactly it hits compared to his c.MK), it’ll basically eat Gief’s s.LK.
Another example is moves against Blanka’s hori balls. The reason those can lose out to so many things is that the red hitbox of it is completely smaller than the green hitbox. Nevertheless in practice these can be a bitch to deal with due to their movement speed and fuckton of active frames, so unless a move is fast, has a good red hitbox and active frames (Like Ryu’s c.M) or mashable with a good red hitbox like Boxer’s c.LP, then it can very likely lose or trade unless timed really well. Of course this isn’t counting moves with invincible frames up to or past their first active frames which will just beat it outright, but that’s aside the point.
Sorry if I’m not wording this well or making it clear.
Edit: Here, hopefully the pictures will make it clearer (Thank you Blackadde and Hoblino for posting these so that I don’t have to DL the data!)
Hitboxes are fucked up in this game. I think most of us can agree.
Range on just about everything is a lot shorter than it looks like.
Vulnerable hitframes are important for pokes because they decide how good a move is for counter hitting. Chun’s b. FP in 3S wasn’t her longest range poke, but it had crazy priority for the amount of space it covered.
Darn
