1021

Meh, I don’t know…each one has it’s own uses, I wouldn’t call Sim’s necessarily “better”

1022

It’s better because it’s faster, can be done in the air and can be used offensively as well as defensively. Akuma’s port is better in wake up situations but worse in every other aspect. It’s simply not as good.

1023

Well, when you look at high level Sim play, his teleport is almost never used offensively…it does happen, but it’s pretty rare to see (unless we’re talking about ultra shenanigans). When it comes to defense, it’s absolutely horrible on wakeup, and not as good as akuma’s during opponent’s pressure. It’s good if we’re talking about a mis timed jump over a fireball or something, in which case you can teleport mid air and still be safe, but overall I don’t think it’s strictly better than Akuma’s. As an Akuma player, I’m 100% sure I wouldn’t wanna exchange my teleport with dhalsim’s.

1024

Ok so rarely used offensively vs never used offensively.

Rarely is still better than never.

And as I said this is the single area Akuma’s is superior.

Sim’s is actually better. Filipino Champ ports away from in tight pressure all the time and it is very very hard to punish. The only time Akuma’s could be better is in the corner.

I would switch in a heartbeat. The kind of setups Akuma could have with such a fast port would be insane. Only Sim’s floaty jump prevents his air port from being broken. On a character like Akuma people would be losing their minds.

1025

Akuma would do mad setups because of his better fireballs (both air and ground), not because of the faster jump. If it’s used offensively it’s IAT anyways, floaty jump doesn’t matter. And it’s also easily punishable if you aren’t covered by an incoming fireball…that’s why it’s never used against decent players if not after hard knockdown+ultra.

When it comes to escaping pressure, sim’s teleport isn’t much better than bison’s. It doesn’t travel enough distance (unlike akuma’s) to be truly good.

Overall:

Wakeup: akuma’s is better by a long shot
Escaping close range pressure: Akuma’s is slightly better
Escaping corners: Akuma’s is better
Offense: akuma’s cannot be used in an offensive way but sim’s is still mad unsafe on offense unless we’re talking about very specific setups (hard knockdown+ultra)

Overall: Tie at best, sim’s not “better” in the strict sense of the term

1026

You really don’t understand the implications of Sim’s port on a normal character.

Jump in bait DP air port back land demon.

Medium level air ports into normal attacks would still result in a combo unlike Sim who can only combo off IAT.

It needs to be IAT to be used offensively because Sim has a floaty jump. IAT is a necessity for Sim that normal characters wouldn’t have.

It travels 3/4 of the screen in 48 frames.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfen_PTT6rI @1:18

Even though the Rufus was jumping forward he still didn’t have time to punish.

I get you like to argue for the sake of it but you are simply wrong again. Sim gets to use his port far more often than Akuma and in a wider variety of scenarios. It is evident in watching Sim matches and Akuma matches.

1027

Rufus didn’t punish because he did was already doing j.hk…had he done a forward jump he could’ve dive kicked on reaction and caught sim…or if he didn’t jump pre emptively he could’ve punished with c.hp.

It’s funny how YOU say that I like to argue just for the sake of it. Really funny. You got me once again, damn it, heheh

1028

And these same options from Rufus would exist against Akuma’s away port. So that is worse than Akuma’s how?

Oh it’s not.

1029

Well, iirc cowardcopter is not back, and cr.MK will be a “wall” again but can be beaten since you can now touch his hurtbox, it’s not the same and people are overlooking this.

As for the damage, I was considering a meterless, max damage punisher, so something like SPS, cr.HP xx DP. That would do 12 (+20 damage from SPS, -8 damage from new fierce DP) less than Super. The new DP will deal +30 damage on antiair, but it also comes with a risk, since you cannot cancel it. Daigo himself said fierce DP is meaningless, I give quite some credit to that (in b4 haters, nuthuggers etc).

Overall it’s about better escape options + his best footsies tool vs +10 damage on fireball (only on hit, since on block damage stays at 12), -20 damage on SPS, a worse hitbox on cr.MK, a little more AA damage (half of the match you’ll still be doing MP DP fadc Ultra) and some normal buffs which hardly ever matter since Capcom can just castrate characters.

1030

like i said in the ryu post when you compare his super and ae2012 version we got :

Buff :

  • Standing mp cancelable
  • Close mk damage up (70-80)
  • Close standing hard kick frame advantage increased
  • Hadouken damage up (60->70)
  • 5 frame invincible mp dp
  • 4 frame invincible hp dp with 1 hit and increased damage (160 damage on first active frame, 60 after)
  • ex tatsu (almost) never whiff last hit
  • counter hit ex-hadoken property changed (need to test to say more about it)
  • U2 vertical hit box increased

Nerf :

  • Hp dp not focus cancelable
  • Air hurricane kick brake
  • Crouching medium kick hurtbox increased (need to test to say more about it)
  • Solar plexus damage decreased (4080 -> 4060)

The ex-tatsu buf improved a lot his damage, his mp dp buff help a lot in aa, the standing mp cancelable his a really good option when cr-mk doesn’t work, and since ryu connect a lot of hadoken in a match (let’s say 3-4 by match) we got 30-40 damage more on each match, so yeah as a ryu mainer i think that he will be better than his super version (if thing doesn’t evolve), or at least not less good, however i’m perhaps saying shit.

1031

Please read my previous post, maybe you started writing before I posted it.

The thing is 80 % of those changes are negligible, like U2 buffs or fierce DP. I also remember Daigo exploiting EX Tatsu in corner to reset scaling.

Some changes are simply stupid (ala Akuma EX Flip > EX air hado), like EX fireball CH into U2 or cl.MK, stuff which won’t get any use. Fireball damage makes up for the SPS nerf, but the damage is essentially the same - since it’s harder to land a sps, I’d say slightly better?

Again, probably not much difference and to each his own view, but I really don’t see Ryu “stronger” than Super.

1032

There is sure not a lot of difference, however like i said before some of this change are pretty good help, and even if there was a reset with ex tatsu, that does’nt change the fact that we have a very good combo finisher for 1 ex now.

the mp dp buf is not negligible at all 1 frame of invincibility is A LOT
Finely the cl.mk change made reliable combo pretty easy to do like sps . cl mk . shoryuken (instead of this cr.hp link which was hard)

and that standing mp is a good help in some matchup (like cody ken etc)

1033

You saying that doesn’t debunk anything, lol, but who do you think was the best character in Super?

How’s the petition topic coming along, guys?

1034

38 votes in the suggestion box, thread has 63 posts but is drying up a bit now, which is to be expected after several days.

1035

CH EX fireball can be followed up with any attack now. FB do more damage. Extra 30 dmg for anti airing correcty (as in deep). Active frames placed back on his c.mk.
Those changes alone would help me out without me making any adjustments. I think he is a little more than slightly better.

1036

Yeah I know about the hurtbox being worse, but IMO the active frames is even more important because in AE those were really horrible.

About the AA risk factor, how many times do you really see someone like Daigo FADC his AA DP if he’s not going into ultra? IMO the HP DP buff was purely done for AA purposes and not combos, if it did turn out that you can reliably get the 160 damage off HP DP without trading, we’ll hardly ever see good Ryu players AA with MP DP, you only get Ultra like once in a round after all.

1037

I definitely agree with the active frame thing, was just noting that it’s not the same D:

Btw with MP DP having 5f invincibility and the fierce one not being cancellable, I still think there will be istances where one’ll choose to antiair with the first.

Err man, we weren’t debating whether those help or not, it’s clear that cr.MK having 5f alone is huge.

It was rather a comparison between SSF4 and v2012 Ryu :>

1038

Yeah that’s why I mentioned “if HP DP turned out to AA without trading” it’ll replace MP DP. For whatever reason, I was always under the impression that MP DP had only 4f of invincibility, that’s why any good Ryu player had to crouch DP after SSFIV was released to avoid trading.

Could be it that HP DP for vanilla Ryu had 6f of invincibility that’s why the invincibility was considered as nerfed in SSFIV?! I don’t get it, I think the info on eventhubs saying that Ryu’s MP DP has 5f of invincibility is wrong, checking the leaked SSFIV videos of the hitboxes, counting frame by frame I only see the first 4f being invincible only. Unless Ryu’s MP DP got buffed in AE compared to SSFIV which I really doubt.

If anyone has any info about this, please let me know, because if both DPs have only 4f of invincibility, HP DP should be used in AE V2012 for all AA purposes unless you’re going to FADC into ultra.

1039

It is as the part I bolded, only MP DP has 5 frames (they stealthily introduced this in AE I guess, because while I can’t remember it in the change notes, but I’m sure it was 4 frames in Super - I remember strong players like Valle or Umehara not antiairing with the absolute ease a 5f MP DP allows, and you confirmed it with the hitbox data), so one might go for it when he doesn’t want to risk a DP with 1) less invincibility 2) no fadc’ing out if mistimed.

HP DP had only 2 frame (down from 4) of invincibility in Super and AE, it became essentially useless: you don’t antiair with it, you usually end combos with Tatsu, you combo into ultra with LP DP since it adds +50 stun. Now it’s back to 4 frame inv. like vanilla and they give him a slight boost in damage and different properties (not fadc’able, 1 hit only) in order to make the player choose between his DPs.

It’s not bad actually: not a strong buff, but it adds a bit of damage and diversifies the gameplay. In Vanilla MP DP was Useless. In Super and AE, HP DP had no active incinbility and was less usesed. In v2012 I still see MP DP being the most used (fadcable, best invincibility, damage still solid), but stronger players will net +30 damage when antiairing with fierce and don’t feel/need to ultra.

It’s not that different for Akuma. Only, we got a horrendous LP DP, and have to choose between more invincibility (HP DP) at the cost of less damage (80/80 most times) and better damage (MP DP) but less invincibility.

tl;dr version

Vanilla

MP DP > 4f inv, 130 damage (1 hit)
HP DP > 4f inv, 160 damage (1 hit)

Super

MP DP > 4f inv, 130 damage (2 hit)
HP DP > 2f inv, 150 damage (2 hit)

AE

MP DP > 5f inv, 130 damage (2 hit)
HP DP > 2f inv, 150 damage (2 hit)

v2012

MP DP > 5f inv, 130 damage (2 hit)
HP DP > 4f inv, 160 damage (1 hit)

1040

Something else about the damage on Ryus DP:

v2012:
160 damage for the first 2 frames
60 damage frames 3+

Also in AE if you FADC and only get one hit:
MP DP 1st hit is 80 damage
HP DP 1st hit is 100 damage