Isn’t this true of all 3 shotos? The shoto design prevents them from sucking in an SF game because they will be decent at everything. They generally aren’t given a glaring weakness.
Being good in every SF is not unique to Akuma, it’s a shoto trait.
Not really. Alpha 3 Ken is considered C+ tier and is considered slightly below mid tier in ST and HDR.
If it was truely a shoto trait I don’t think there’d be any argument about Oni / Evil Ryu being mid tier yet until recently everyone just accepted them as bottom tier and most still think Oni is bottom tier and evil ryu is maybe mid.
It def helps however, Ryu and Ken aren’t nearly as consistently strong as Akuma who has only not been upper tier in CvS2 and SFxT otherwise he has always been either top tier or just outside of top tier. Being a shoto isn’t a free ‘mid tier’ card but their design is well rounded for sure.
Original Ken is considered high tier in ST. I assume in games where multiple version exist we take the version that rates highest as the definitive version for that game.
As far as A3, there will be games where one of the shotos isn’t good. Just look at CVS2 and SFxT for Akuma.
Which is why I mentioned “3 shotos” as I was referencing the original 3 designs. We could lump Dan in there as well, but that wasn’t my point.
Is this even accurate? Are there even more instances of Akuma being higher tier more consistently that Ryu and Ken?
ST - Akuma was tops but because he was intended to be broken.
A1 - Ken was tops, Akuma and Ryu were good.
A2 - Ryu and Ken were better.
A3 - Ryu and Akuma were very good, Ken not so much.
CVS2 -Ken was better than Ryu and Akuma, but all were good.
3s - Ken was better than Akuma, Akuma was better than Ryu, Ryu was good.
SF4 series - Akuma is better than both, but all are good.
SFxT - Ryu and Ken are better, jury is still out on how good Akuma is.
Shotos are good due to their design and which shoto is the strongest in a particular game isn’t consistent. Being good consistently is not an Akuma trait, it’s a shoto trait. (original shotos)
In fact Ken may have been better more often than either Ryu and Akuma.
I’m gonna love this, please continue guys!
Yes it is accurate
Current ST charts: Super Turbo Ranking Chart 2013
Ken is ranked well below mid tier for both Japan and USA. Japan puts him lower than Cammy or Fei.
A1 difficult to find tier lists for this but the one on SRK wiki is: Top Tier: Guy, Akuma, Charlie, Ken Middle Tier: Everyone else
A2 yes Ryu and Ken were better.
A3 V-Akuma is considered S tier along with A, V Dhalsim and V Sodom. Ryu is B tier. Ken is C+ Big difference.
CvS2 by far Akuma’s worst appearance at B tier.
3S Ken is better than Akuma but Akuma is considered well above mid tier but def not equal to Ken who is the best shoto.
SF4 Akuma has been #1 shoto in every version while Ken was bordering on low tier in Super but was still mid tier. (at least according to japanese tier lists.)
SFxT Vanilla - Ryu/Ken were better and Akuma was around mid tier
SFxT 2013 - Generally agreed that Akuma is the best shoto and his tier placement is currently higher than Ryu/Ken and rising higher as he is explored more. People are just too used to the vortex monster he is in SF4 and not concentrating on his other strengths.
Ken has varied a TON Ryu has varied a bit less. Akuma has varied the least and is only has 2 appearances where he isn’t high tier.
Hmm. Genkibot also won OzHadou earlier this year (pretty exciting tourney).
…?
What?
I said “Original Ken is considered high tier in ST” and then you show me a tier list where Original Ken is listed as high tier…?
It’s wrong. Guy (grounded redizzies) and Ken (rolltrap) where the best characters in that game. Mike Watson had a tier list in the Alpha 1 thread a few years back. Akuma and Ryu were both good though.
Big difference what? Akuma was top tier, Ryu was high and Ken sucked.
Nobody said he was mid tier, just that Ken was better.
Jury is still out on SFXT 2013 shotos tiers placement. No definitive tier list on where there place is out there nor is there much agreement.
Akuma is not high tier in CVS2, SFXT and Alpha 2. If anything the least variation goes to Ryu who has remained a solid level mid/high tier character throughout while Akuma and Ken have taken turns at being a top tier in different games.
Akuma - Top tier/high tier in a few games, never been crap.
Ryu - High tier/mid tier virtually everytime, never been crap.
Ken - Top tier/High tier in a few games, mediocre a couple of times.
Ryu/Ken were the worst in World Warrior tho.
Akuma>Ryu>Ken in SF3.
Akuma>Ryu>Ken in 2i
for completions sake i guess.
There is no Akuma in SF3. At all.
WW isn’t relevant because it didn’t have Akuma.
I agree, Bison is not top tier in this version. No comeback factor, bad oki game, poor antiaris and bad damage output keeps him from top tier teritory. Also, Bison vs guile is one of the worst match ups in the entire game.
Regarding the top tiers, mine is very similar to Veserius:
Cammy
Akuma
Seth
Fei
Adon
Viper
Rufus
Ibuki
Sakura
Maybe Makoto ? The order is not necesarry set in stone.
If people are not bored talking match ups, I’m ok with it.
You casually ignored the Japan tier list for ST though which lists Ken as low. Big difference between S tier and B tier. Would you say that the gap between Chun and Ryu in 3S isn’t noticeably large even if Ryu is competitive? Because that seems to be the idea you are presenting.
Interestingly enough, looking up this stuff I’ve found several instances of statements that Ken may no longer be considered #3 in 3S. Momochi for instance doesn’t believe he is. And while I dunno how much weight I’d put in this, Renic actually believes Akuma is better than Ken in 3S.
facepalm
The Japanese tier list does not give a listing for Original Ken which would explain why I IGNORED IT.
I don’t even know what you’re talking about. The point is that the shoto archtype is good overall. So what if Akuma was S tier and Ryu was b tier, they were both good. The same tier difference existed in Ken and Ryu’s favor in A2, but you don’t see me harping on it.
There were arguments that Mak and Duds surpassed Ken years ago. Even so Ken is generally believed to be the best shoto.
Y’know what? I’m sorry. I realize my mistake now. I should never mention Muhamm… Akuma by name ever as it is blasphemy to utter his name.
I shall refrain from ever mentioning your diety as everything I say about him is slander. I apologize.
Also it’s amazing that you can forget something 2 posts later
[quote=“ShinAkuma204, post:1467, topic:156754”]
It has nothing to do with Akuma (or any character) and has to do with you having no understanding of the subject matter. I mean do you even understand the difference between Original Ken and Ken in Super Turbo?
@Eternal you kind of fucked up, the jp list doesn’t have o characters, which if you notice have SIGNIFICANTLY different numbers than their n counterparts on the US chart.
I mean look at o.sagat rank on the us tier list compared to n.sagat ranks on the jp tier list.
That doesn’t invalidate the A3, or 3S or every other thing that Shin*****204 likes to just try and wipe away because it doesn’t fit into his reality of ***** being this mid - upper mid tier character that has never been good but Shin makes work despite that.
Also if you look at that very tier list that seems to to be the issue. O Ken is actually pretty far down there. He isn’t TERRIBLE but he is still mid tier at best and N. Ken is below that. Ken is 9th out of 19characters. Though to be fair, the gap between him and the next lowest is pretty significant.
Vulpes
1477
I don’t even think he fucked up
ShinAkuma said: “Shotos are always good due to their tools. No way for a Shoto to be bad”.
Then Eternal brings up N.Ken, who IS a shoto, and ShinAkuma goes "Well, if the same sprite exists twice in the game, we obviously take the stronger version"
That doesn’t make sense? If Shotos are good by default due to their tools, both O. and N.Ken should be good.
P.S. Sakura is a shoto too and was low tier in SSF4 :~
P.P.S. This discussion is dumb and useless
Just drop the whole damn thing. The discussion is going nowhere fast and nothing I say will convince Shin and frankly it doesn’t matter who is right because none of it really has to do with AE2012
ST hijacked the AE tier thread somehow lol.
The point that more tools = less issues is a sound one though. More tools = less likely to have bad match ups. Characters with polarizing toolsets like Zangief can have extremely favourable match ups, but also end up landing up with a lot of quite bad match ups that more rounded characters don’t struggle with.
A consensus I was trying to achieve earlier was that while characters are weaker, no one is gimped to the point they’re quite literally useless. So instead of just dismissing any character that isn’t top tier, pay attention to what lower tiers do well, because it might turn out one of them has an oddly favourable match up against a top tier.
There is no need to put major in quotations. Genki won OHN2012 with Juri. There are players there as good as the top players in the U.S. Last year Shangtsung was 17th at Evo and HumanBomb came 5th, both trained in Australia. The American and Japanese scenes aren’t the only ones capable of breeding top players, even though you rarely hear of talent from outside of your own shore unless they come over and beat you.
