Adon basically does what charge characters SHOULD do in this game, but without having charge restrictions which opens up his ability to OS and play more proactively against characters like Cammy or Seth. Having to hold charge to properly AA is incredibly awkward.
So much truth from EmblemLord. Y‘all niggas should show some more respect to logic. Watch Ryan‘s match agains Infil again and tell me how much Sagating he does. He has to completely ignore his character‘s strengths and play an odds stacked uphill battle. He negates the things that make Sagat Sagat. Also Sagat is terrible matchup-wise. He loses a bit to bad characters and gets BODALODIED by good ones. Ok, he beats grapplers and Honda. Small compensation 
Yea, we already knew sagat lose to half the cast though lol
Maybe I‘m stating the obvious. It just escapes me how people can call Sagat a good character and Dudley a bad character and claim self-evidency.
“He’s safe, has dominant normals…”. That is the reason why he is top 10.
Add FADCable dp into ultra, one of the fastest walk speeds in the game and he can easily get around fireballs. That is the reason why he is top 5/6
What is he missing? a fireball? command grab?
DeeJay is ass. Yeah that was easy 
otori
1447
Tiers don’t matter, matchups do.
Yes, sagat gets blow up by fei, cammy, juri, dudley and akuma (other guys like viper, seth and ken are debatable, imo), but vs the other 33 characters he goes even, has advantage or completely destroys them and he has such a defining playstyle that matchups are played completely different vs him and he’s effectively dictating the pace of the match (except for those folks that ignore street fighter, of course).
So, while sagat won’t be winning singles without counterpicking, he’s a very strong character and even though he’s high mid or mid tier he has impact on the overall balance of the game. A good sagat can weed out ryus, codys, sakuras, adons, e. ryus, etc, and other strong characters that would give the top tier trouble.
Also, EmblemLord, you ask people to use logic, but i fail to see the one behind your argument. If you’re so adamant about top tiers, why do you play sagat? Honest question, i don’t understand why you’d gimp yourself willingly. I pick my characters based on whether i think i can win with them or not, assuming he fits into my playstyle. You play this game just for -god forbid- fun?
I think 33 is way overstating it, character loses to a lot of characters. I’ve heard Ken called 7-3 by top Ken players in their favor, and people hate saying they have great matchups.
I agree with the point Otori was making about matchups but not the numbers. Doesn’t Sagat also have trouble with Makoto? Sagat is solid mid - upper but he def has trouble with some key matchups and has some exploitable weaknesses.
otori
1450
Yes, it’s just a hyperbole (hope i’m using this word right lol) for argumentation. Him playing sagat doesn’t help much because sagat is pretty ass in this game’s engine and the current state of the game.
That’s just semantics though. The backbone of the argument is that a) tiers aren’t the end all for character viability (sako won the hardest league in the world with two high-mid/midtiers; arcade rankings and points; multiple tournament results without infiltration, etc); b) midtier matters and has impact in the upper tier (specially in this game where the top tier isn’t as dominant) and c) why the hell would you try to be a low tier hero and pick a character that you can’t win with?
It’s less about sagat in particular and more about disagreeing with his view on tiers.
From a toolset point of view sagat is indeed invalidated by Gouki. He can’t impose his will onto Gouki. (well…no one can really) Sagat CAN win by waiting for a mistake and guessing. That’s it. Like any bad match. Sagat does not fight gouki. The sagat player fights the gouki player.
Saying a low level gouki should beat a high level Sagat if its truly invalidation is nonsense. All chars take a high level of dedication and understanding to use effectively. Its what happens when that high level is achieved that is our concern.
Can such and such beat such and such even though its a bad match? Sure. Will it happen often or often enough to be truly relevant in a metagame discussion. i think not
otori: I fancy myself a Sagat player and SRK seems to think im good with him sooooooooooooo yeah? anyways when the patch drops i will see where the chips fall and jump ship. prolly to gouki. he is always good.
Why didn’t you do it before when he was better or even now since you’re so sure Akuma will always remain da best? Or do you just like to bitch more about the character instead of dominating with him?
While I dunno about Akuma still being “the best” in the update you can’t deny that there has never been a Street Fighter style game where he wasn’t mid tier at the very worst. CvS, Alpha, ST, 3S, SF4, SFxT all of them have Akuma at mid tier at the very worst. Now he doesn’t DOMINATE by any means but it’s generally a safe bet that he’ll be good in any game he is in, though the level of ‘good’ can vary from game to game.
ST: Broken
SFA: Top tier
SFA2: Upper mid tier
SFA3: Top tier
3s: Upper tier
SF4 (all of em): Top tier
Akuma by design, will always be a contender in sf games.
You should also add that he has only like two bad match-ups that are 4-6 at worst and a bunch of 6-4 match-ups in his favor and some that are possibly 7-3.
He also happens to have instant-air jaguar kick, which he can use to get around fireballs with and combo afterwards, without using any meter. Or then use it like TKCS, to beat crouch-tech or throw attempts when applying pressure up-close.
It’s not just Gamerbee that makes him look top-tier. If anyone wants to see Adon’s potential they should check out a Japanese player called Mukii. He has like 280k points at the arcades and for a reason. I don’t think he’s better than Gamerbee but his Adon is more advanced.
He’s only mid tier in SFxT and SFIII.
SFxT he is mid tier but that is mostly because other characters above him are so good (and he is actually shifting upward as you’ve seen. So he may be higher than straight mid tier). 3S he is high tier not mid. He isn’t TOP tier but he is considered just outside of top tier. Him and Urien.
I actually think he’s really good in SFxT, he has a really good throw game. That’s a discussion for the SFxT thread though.
I agree with the general point that Akuma will never be bad because he has so many tools. Look at Seth, lowest life in the game and people still think he’s ridiculous. Giving a character lower life just because they’ve got everything isn’t a great way of balancing.
