5901

This is a match up chart, the tiers are ordered based on the matchups. If you think Honda/Sakura or Oni matches are wrong, then make your argument in order to correct them.
The problem with Oni is - even if almost everybody think he is pretty good/ not bad, nobody talks of his matches. So…he is stuck there.

5902

I can chime in on some matchups for Oni. I think he beats Abel, Honda, and also slight advantage over Balrog. He also goes even with Rufus, Chun, and Vega, goes even or has slight advantage over Guy, Ken, and Sakura, and beats Zangief very much, its easily at least 6-4, closer to 7-3. There is also absolutely no way in which Bison beats Oni, let alone 7-3, i think that match is even at worst. Other than these matches, the rest looks more or less accurate for him, and I have yet to meet a Makoto who gave me trouble so I can’t really comment on that matchup but I doubt it is a 6-4 just by looking at both character’s tools and recent high level matches between these characters.

Oh and if you want explanations then I can give them of course, Im just too lazy to type shit up lol

5903

Ok, I think after the holydays we will revise the matchups, and maybe we will start with Oni and talk about them. I’m too lazy right now to get into matchup talk, haha.

5904

I did say “ALMOST” all of Cody’s problems. The EX Zonk punishable thing you are thinking of is the fact that he is -7F if you let it just get blocked but if you do an FADC BACKDASH he is -9F and left closer to the opponent in most scenarios due to his poor backdash. However it’s only -1F on block if you FADC forward dash which is only punishable currently by a handful of characters and only their ultras/supers and only really 3-4 chars use the ultras that would be an issue (Gief/Hakan/Ibuki/Hawk). Being -1F might be a bit more of an issue in USF4 with W Ultras as Balrog, Guy, and Honda will be more likely to have their throw ultras than they are currently, plus then you add in Hugo who might have a 0F ultra and Poison who might have a 1F ultra with Poison Kiss. However at the moment being -1F isn’t a big deal after an FADC isn’t a big deal, even in the Gief match up he isn’t going to react to your FADC forward dash 100% of the time.

5905

@EmanuelB

Thing’s I’d like to hear more on:

Makoto - Dan listed as 5-5. I’ve always maintained this is one of Makoto’s harder MUs IMO.
Makoto - Fei Long listed as 5-5. This one I feel is slightly in Fei Long’s favor and a couple of Fei’s I’ve talked to agree. His lights (especially crLP) just shut down so much of Makoto’s options to approach. The only real advantages Makoto has is that EX Karakusa blows up Rekkas and the always present “Makoto blow up” factor where she kills you in 2 reads.

Blanka - Ken
Blanka - Sagat
I don’t disagree with these as I don’t know them, I would like to hear more discussion on them as Blanka USUALLY is known for doing OK against fireball and low mobility characters. Is it just the kara DP/Fireball that kills those MUs?

Cody - Abel: You have this one listed as 4-6 but colored blue for a “positive” match up in Cody’s favor for some reason.

Cody - Cammy: No matter how many times I see this play out I still feel it is a 3.5-6.5 in Cammy’s favor. She simply is a better Cody by miles in frame traps/speed/defense and normals for anti airing don’t cut it vs her.

Cody - Yun: I thought it was settled on 5-5?

Cody - Evil Ryu: This is IMO 4.5-5.5. Evil Ryu’s faster speed, true block string from crMK - Fireball, higher damage (usually), and far reaching crMK are all difficult for Cody.

Cody - Ibuki: 4-6 imo Cody’s footsies only get him so far in this one. Ask almost any Cody and they’ll say they hate fighting Ibuki. Her footsies are underrated (far LP will stuff Cody’s crLK even. Far MK is amazing. crMP is slow but amazing in reach and active frames. She can combo to a hard knockdown just from punishing a blocked LP Criminal Upper from Cody which is his safest special for block strings. And she can do a healthy amount of chip with Tsumuji on block vs Cody which CAN be spaced to be out of range of his crLK. That is before getting into the vortex, her B+MP anti air being good vs Cody especially on trade, and the fact Cody is a character she can do extended Tsumuji loops on.

Cody - Dhalsim 4.5-5.5 or even 4-6. Cody doesn’t have a way to get in unlike most of the cast as his EX Ruffian isn’t projectile invincible till 11F, his EX Zonk doesn’t go particularly far at all (about the range of 1 of Fei’s rekkas) and his regular zonk loses to Dhalsim’s stretchy limbs, including 2 of Sim’s most used ones: sLK and sHP. The only saving grace for this MU is that Cody can kill Dhalsim in basically 2.5 combos and Cody has a couple of good unblockables vs Dhalsim.

Cody - Zangief: 4.5-5.5. I’ve always felt this is a MU that is heavily dependent almost ENTIRELY one 1 factor: Zangief’s patience. As long as Zangief doesn’t start getting jumpy or pressuring too hard and is willing to lose about 1/3rd of his health walking Cody to the corner this MU is in Gief’s favor slightly. Cody doesn’t have any way to escape the corner, Gief’s far MP smacks Cody for 70 or more damage (if he manages a far LK followup or another far MP) which can quickly regain any lost health. Gief can out range any of Cody’s pokes with a LP SPD though out ranging Cody’s far HK is a bit tougher. Far HK however is easily whiff punished by a jab or sMP. Far HK also can be ducked under by Gief’s crMK or crHK or DF+MK/HK allowing Gief to get closer and SPD. Anti airing Gief is tricky as what will anti air a FJ HP from Gief loses every time to a FJ MK or FJ D+LK, and vice versa. Most of Cody’s air normals will trade with Gief’s lariat. Gief has a better walk speed than Cody making it easier for him to shimmy and make Cody whiff things Gief can punish. Gief’s far LK is a great button in this as well for dealing with things like Cody’s crLK or crMP. It’s not a blow up though, Cody’s short range backdash actually helps him in this for once as if he backdashes one of Gief’s SPDs it leaves Cody in range for crHP - HP Criminal Upper in most scenarios which is a healthy 260 damage punish. Cody’s crHP is also a great whiff punish vs any of Gief’s whiffed lariats. Plus the ever present fireball weakness that Gief has. Even if Cody’s badstone is pretty well… bad… it’s a fireball and thus can be difficult for Gief to get around.

Cody - Dudley: 5.5-4.5 imo. Dudley can put Cody in the corner very quickly and from there Cody suffers the issue of having no way to really combat frame traps against himself other than stand teching. Plus Dudley does comparable damage to Cody (in some situations: more damage than Cody.) however the issue Dudley always has rears it’s head pretty harshly in this MU. Cody’s crLK tears a pretty god damn big hole in Dudley’s footsies. crHK isn’t too shabby either when used sparringly. But crLK really does a number on Dudley. This one is IMO slightly in Cody’s favor.

Cody - Gouken: 6-4. Imo one of Cody’s better MUs. Gouken lacks a solid crouch tech option, and he can’t really do stand tech as easily since his back throw is 5F startup so he has to use forward throw which means he can’t be holding back to block when he does it. He can’t really abuse 4 button teching either as Gouken’s backdash is pretty crappy and punishable. Cody’s crMK slide is at it’s best in this MU as it’s one of the few where Cody can EASILY and consistently slide under Gouken’s fireball, as well as low profile a rush punch or a tatsu and in some cases slide under and swap sides with a demon flip dive kick (this one he has to be careful though since there is a DECENT chance of the dive kick smacking Cody in the face instead since the dive kick goes at a sharp angle and Cody’s slide doesn’t go almost any distance, and because of Cody’s large hurtbox on the slide it loses to the dive kick in most scenarios if you try and use it as a true anti air. Still viable though vs DF dive kick.) Demon Flip - parry to bait anti airs doesn’t really work vs Cody since HK Ruffian Breaks armor and Cody’s B+MP or crMP will usually recover at about the same time as the parry does and if Cody did a crMK side switch the parry misses and Cody can sometimes get a throw in before Gouken recovers. Gouken has good pokes, comparable damage (actually as good in the corner or better.), easy ways to combo to ultra for a comeback, ability to alter jump arcs, great ways to maintain pressure vs Cody using demon flip dive kick once he has established he knows how/when to cancel to the dive kick to bait and punish an anti air. Fireballs can keep Cody trapped in the corner for a while. However overall IMO it’s in Cody’s favor pretty solidly.

5906

It’s a matchup chart, might as well call it a matchup chart. A matchup chart and a proper tier list are different things after all.

5907

Oh man, a lot of stuff, haha.

  • Dan vs Makoto:
    UltraDavid and Feimitsu always argued the match is 6-4 Dan’s favour.
    David: [details=Spoiler] My 6-4 rating for Makoto is a better rating of Makoto’s chances than every Makoto I know gives her. In fact, my friend I just played a good session with last night said it’s one of her worst matchups. I’m pretty surprised to hear that Gustavo thinks Makoto wins. I don’t see what she does in that match. Hope I screw up my positioning? Because she really can’t dictate screen location in most situations, and the only way she gets her super crazy damage/stun going is if her opponent lets her do it. Dan chases down her backdash really well, can get in pretty well, can fight for positioning in what Makoto is forced to call “footsies,” and by the way has a great backdash and a usable dp for when he’s in trouble. Nobody’s perfect, I’ll screw up sometimes and those screwups are usually lost rounds, but in a 10 game set, I dunno how Dan doesn’t get at least 6. Stupid 900 stun. If Dan had normal or above average stun, this matchup could be gross. [/details]

Feimitsu: [details=Spoiler] Makoto…I even played some endless against Vryu’s Makoto (Online, yeah I know) and my Dan was quite raw still. He could win matches only by mashing Ultra1 on Wakeup to stop my pressure. If I wouldn’t guess right, I would die. Even now that I leveled up I still think that for Makoto this is a bad match. She cannot impose her game on a character with a very good backdash, a solid shoryuken (ex version the 3rd best in the game) and a forward-moving armor breaking move. My options against her wakeup are simply too many. On my knockdown, instead, it’s quite even. That’s why I give it a 6-4 Dan. [/details]

But Lost Fragment made an argument about the match being even (unfort. I couldn’t find it), Swedish Chief and Ixion agreed with 5-5, and 801 Strider called the match 6-4 Mak’s favour.
And, if I remember correctly, Killer always argued the match is even (but he can correct me, I suppose)

  • Mak vs Fei:
    Both 801 Strider and Killer called this match even. (killer made an argument I can’t find, but maybe he can chime in).
    Maybe Higland can share his opinion on this match, too.

  • Blanka vs Ken:
    Both Veserius and Shinebox agreed the match is in Ken’s favour. (Ves made an argument a long time ago, but I think is buried deep in the old thread)

  • Blanka vs Sagat:
    I raised the same issue a few pages back. Veserius explained in detail why Blanka loses to Sagat, and Emblem agreed with him.

  • Cody vs Abel - correct, a mistake. I changed it.

  • Cody vs Cammy:
    This match was little touched. Cybeast called it 6.5-3.5 cammy, but Otori, Julpero, Alioune and Dafeetlee all called it 6-4 (one thing to mention is that Alioune doesn’t shy away from calling big numbers, on the contrary)

  • Cody vs Yun:
    This one was a tough call. Arguments were made on both sides Infil, Cybeast and Breaker argued for Cody’s favour:

Cybeast: [details=Spoiler] Cody beats Yun already, it basically boils down to cody being able to stop yun running his pressure since Cody’s jabs can completely nulify yuns ways in(dash punch, focus dash, elbow etc) and zonk kills most of Yun’s reset gimmicks. Yun’s dive kicks are extremely easy to anti air with nj.hp, st.hk, bk mp, hk.ruffian, slide etc. Plus yun’s reversal is extremely easy to punish with ruffians or ultra.and Cody’s frame traps work great on him. Not sure you understood what I wrote, I don’t mean that the jabs beats pressure after strings that end with the shoulder i’m talking about the shoulder from mid range. Yun can barely jump at Cody without getting anti aired(because of the nerf to the divekick) he is usually forced to stay on the ground to approch Cody, so yun has to either use the shoulder, lung punch or dash and Cody counters these options by moving back a forth doing cr.lp or st.lp along with this nj.hp, rocks/fake rocks are also great options. The ex versions are a good way around this but Yun struggles to get meter consistanly during the match, even whiffing palm is dangerous when Cody has meter since he can either ex ruffian of throw ex rocks. Even when Yun does get close ex criminal upper and ex zonk are great for stopping his momentum.The more that I think about once Cody gets a life lead it pretty hard for Yun to make a comeback now that his damage isn’t as good. [/details]

Infil: [details=Spoiler] If Cody keeps bingo stocked, he can react to st.MP xx shoulder and just zonk right through it. It’s a 1f punish with low short if you block shoulder, but it’s not unreasonable to do it reliably with a plink. The timing is pretty straightforward. The unblockable in the corner + way above average punishes on blocked DPs + buttons for all occasions + HK ruffian FADC ultra (if you choose U1) just tilt it in his favor. Yun’s traditional pressure (shoulders, dive kicks) just don’t work well against a smart Cody, so it’s 5.5 or 6 for Cody IMO. It’s not worse because Cody still has to block if he gets knocked down. [/details]

CoosCoos: “it’s really hard to keep the space needed to keep Yun off of him consistently, and Yun can choose to approach from the ground with not too many fears(I mean cr. lk is there) however damage output will end Yun if he is careless”

Julio: “I play a lot against Brian Jeon and i too play cody a lot. But in the end, cody still loses in my opinion. Cody has a wide hitbox so he’s easy to cross up even with medium and roundhouse divekick. Cody can put up a fair game but once he get’s knocked down its over. Good Cody’s stand a chance if they know the timing to punish jab shoulder on block with their 3 frame low short. Also, Yun has ways to apply pressure strings that are immune to reversal ex zonks, so it’s pretty hard for high level cody vs yun. Also, cody’s crack kick can be reacted to and punished easily when whiffed.”

I don’t know, it seemed to me Infil and Cybeast arguments were more solid. Not that I know anything on this match, but they described how cody can effectively keep Yun out. His divekick is much weaker than Cammy’s, and the dmg output/life difference is in cody’s favour. That’s why I left the numbers unchanged.

(btw I don’t know if I posted their arguments before - I wanted to ask you about them, but I’m not sure if I did)

  • Cody vs Evil Ryu:
    like many of Evil’s matches, was never touched. I don’t mind changing it - maybe Otori/ other cody players could also share their oppinion ?

  • Cody vs Ibuki:
    this one was another tough call.
    Cybeast and Buktooth called it an even match
    Damascus: 6-4 ibuki :" Cody is free to vortex, cannot jump on Ibuki, has a good hitbox for loops. On the flip side, Cody can punish LK Tsumuji without even meter (cr.LK - ruffian) and whiff punish cr.MP, any hit can lead to almost 50% health gone for Ibuki. Still Ibuki favored as he has a very hard time actually getting in."
    Saunic: 6-4: "Ground game and vortex a lot better than Cody’s."
    F Word: 5.5-4.5 “A competitive and somewhat even ground game. Vortex completely safe on his knockdown and all escapes easily punishable. U2 punishes her sweep however and damage output means he only needs to hit her twice to stun. safe vortex gives her the edge”

I just went with the middle ground

  • Cody vs Dhalsim:
    This match wasn’t touched by cody players. Both Snafo and playing to win called it 5-5.
    Snafoo: “I’m not too sure about this one since the 2012 buff for cody so im putting it 5-5”

  • Cody vs Zangief:
    Ok, this match was heavily debated. Veggey, Shinbojan and Sharin were arguing for 5-5. Cybeast and Otori called it 5.5-4.5 Cody’s favour.
    Meansaltine called it 5.5-4.5 gief’s favour: “He has good ways to keep you out, but once you get a knockdown it is open season. Since his offense relies heavily on frametraps, I think it is good for gief.”

Again, I went with the middle - maybe MachoRhombus can also share his opinion ?

  • Cody vs Dudley:
    Shinbojan and Heavens called the match 6-4 Cody, but 34 and Cliffeside labeled it 5-5.
    34: “Dudley vs Cody being 5-5 is hard to explain.
    Both have real strong buffers, and pressure, Cody’s wake up is good, but costs meter to make safe (punishable by ultras, and backdash can be OS’ed (when meterless) with f.MK which starts a 300+ damage combo meterles sfrom anywhere.
    Knife Cody is beast .5 cody if he can use knife.
    really hard to explain since I only know 2 good cody players, I can see why they think it’s in theier favor (since most Dudley’s are bad), but really if other Dudley players were to ask what’s the Dudley-34 match up they would say 4-6 too.”

  • Cody vs Gouken:
    Gouken matches were hardly touched. I’m fine with the number change - maybe Amigoone can share his opinion, too on this match ?

5908

I’m starting to think that Balrog beats Gief, his footsies are just overwhelming, you can’t punish his sweep, which controls a big portion of space, standing HP is a bitch to play around too if the Balrog knows his spacing, good spaced dash punches are a great tool since the Gief player has to take risks to stuff it. He corners Gief pretty easily and getting out of there is a tough endeavor. 6-4 Balrog imo.

Also, I think that Dan and Dudley are 7-3 matchups in Gief’s favor, Dan can’t do crap when Gief gets U1, his footsies are easily stuffed and he can’t get out of the corner unless the Gief messes up. It’s just a mauling once he gets the Ultra. Dudley can run the clock down if he gets the lifelead by doing a ton of st.HP trades, and he can actually mount an offense if he gets a solid knockdown, it’s just that whiff punishing his stuff is done easily, his offense doesn’t give him as much as what Gief can get on a good read, getting out of the corner isn’t easy, at all, and his defence is pretty ass with the only things that you have to account being his Cross Counter (for those crossup splash and knees mixups) and EX DP when he has 3 meters, and both aren’t a big issue tbh. It just feels like Gief walks forward, brushes up whatever he gets hit by and runs his game on those 2 with pretty much no worries.

That’s my view anyways.

5909

The more I play against Fei the more Mak’s difficulties at mid range become apparent to me. His buttons just plain stop Mak cold at that range, and when I win against Fei in most cases it’s because they decided to go on the offense and I find an opening to turn the tables. A patient, defensive Fei will give Mak fits. I can maybe change my rating to 5.5 in Fei’s favor.

Not budging on Dan though. Still don’t think he has the tool to CONSISTENTLY put Mak in a bad position. You can get there once in a while but Mak can make a read and undo all that pressure you were applying.

5910

A little late, but still…

Spoiler

Sorry again for all these typos.

As much as I appreciate your effort at having a proper MU discussion, I wonder if your method is the most fitting. Looking at the answers you got for my matchup opinions, things really boils down to people thinking they just know better than others about all sort of things. I play Gen since Vanilla, I’m a lab monster myself since forever, and usualy play with people that also know what they are doing, but apparently it’s still very easy for people to assume I’m an inexperienced player who does not know how to jump on Makoto whenever they read me saying things that goes against their own experiences. =p

It’s not a complaint, nor I’m unpleased by anything, I’m just saying that maybe you should think some other way around your methods.

Let me know if I can help in any way, bye. :wink:

5911
  • Zangief vs Balrog:
    another hard call:
    3nigmatic (balrog player) : “The easy reason, is that Balrog can time gief out. It’s 100% possible for Balrog to play such a strong ground-game both mid-screen and with Gief in the corner long enough to maintain the life lead and shut Zangief down. Balrog has very simple answers to all of Gief’s ground-game options. True if Zangief knocks Balrog down, then the matchup gets tossed in the other direction, but it’s practical to say that Balrog can keep gief out for most of the match. The hardest part is finding an opportunity to inflict damage, so life lead is important, but even more so is running down the clock.”

Snake Eyez: "I think that the kd nerf on ex gh hurt Zangiefs vortex ability but the thing about Zangief is he is a straight up and down a footsie character and the moment a Zangief player realizes this they start to see why almost any character without a fireball either goes even or loses to Gief, I believe Gief beats Rog because all of Rogs normals are easily whiff punishable, also Balrog players love to j. dash punch so what I do mainly is make them choose between 1: playing footsies with me 2: spacing j. dash punch without whiffing getting baited for far st. strong or choosing strong dash punch to which might leave them to close after hit for a j. spd punish.

I’d say 5-5, Pr Rog and Keno (2 great Balrog players ) they don’t like the matchup at all. If anything someone could argue that it’s 6-4 but Balrog has a really good sweep he could probably use that throught the whole fight and do well "

What do you think of this ?

  • Zangief vs Dan:

Veggey also thinks the match is 7-3 gief, but generally Dan players consider T Hawk and Honda their hardest matchups, that’s why they call gief only 4-6

  • Zangief vs Dudley:
    this match was never discussed. From little I know, gief is pretty bad for Dudley. I’m fine with changing this one.
5912

I completely agree with 3nigmatic, if Zangief gets a knockdown then all of this gets tossed out of the window, but if the Balrog is patient then I see no way in which this can be considered a 5-5 matchup.

About Dan, I really think it’s 7-3, Gief doesn’t need to really get in, he can just keep walking forward, playing footsies and staying patient while punishing anything Dan does, if Gief gets U1 then Dan can’t do shit to him, period, and if Dan gets cornered then he will have to take huge risks with dash-in grab or dan kicks, but if the Gief is properly spaced then there’s not much he can do to that. It just feels like the Gief player has to mess up in order for Dan to take it.

5913

I would really like to find a more accurate method, but…I just couldn’t think of something better. I know my method is far from perfect, I just don’t know how else to do it.

On Makoto match, there were 3 Makoto players that argued different - one for 6-4 mak, other for 5-5, and the last one for 6-4 gen !!.
Yeb also thinks this match is even.

The way I proceeded here is - I left the number untouched (6-4 mak), until maybe we get more input.

If you want, I can bring their arguments, since I’m very interested in your opinion (I know you are prob. the most experienced around here)

Feroce: 5-5 [details=Spoiler] At midrange Gen’s Cr.mp/st.mk into hands beats practically EVERYTHING Makoto does. Tsurugi can help,but he can counter it just buffering hands during his normals. We can’t dash too often and FA is almost useless here. What really turn the matchup are the setups after UKD:Gen have some unblockables/hard to block setups with Oga,get out of those isn’t simple especially when Gen starts mix those Oga… One unblockable or one hitting your feet. Gekiros are useful against Makoto,stay out of her karakusa range is vital for him. [/details]

Blackhand: 6-4 gen’s favour: [details=Spoiler]gen can fake the oga unblockable and go for front side which will usually hit makoto, she’s stuck in a dumb guessing game. i hate that move. she can usually use u2 to escape from that, and U2 can also OS gen’s backdash from a safe jump, but you give up so much burst damage that it’s not really worth it.

i have played this matchup a LOT against a very good local gen player, and we both agree that gen beats her between 5.5~6 to 4.5~4. being so mobile (esp being able to walk so fast in crane) is a real hassle, although makoto has buttons she can press (s.mp, fwd+mp, etc.) to bully her way in. gen has an incredibly strong spacing game and can keep her outside of her effective range by just pressing buttons into hands so she has to take big risks (force her way in with surprise jump HP, dash in, try to whiff punish with sweep).

really what kills it for me is that every touch will end up with TC -> hard kd into a 6 way crossup/empty low/empty throw guessing game that no reversal (ultra, lp fuki, ex kara, backdash, focus backdash) will get you out of. you have to take the mixup or at least eat the focus damage + reaction sweep. all fuki’s lose to deep crossup mantis/crane mk and since they’re not ‘real’ safejumps you can’t grab him either.

for whatever reason gen reels really far back if you hit him crouching with axe kick, so much so that he’s basically offscreen if you hit him in the corner. really annoying that you have to use a slower button like c.mp to follow up, which isn’t always possible from higher hits (plus, it’s extra hard to do axe kick -> u1 vs him because of this).

her saving grace is that she gets really big punishes on ex gekiro b/c she doesn’t need to hit him grounded to juggle (just do immediate hp fukiage), and she stuns really fast if she gets at least 1 opening + the following mixup with meter. [/details]

5914

I see. Unfortunatelly, I’m not very creative myself on these things, so I can’t come out with another method as well. Will play along.

Mak: I won’t take to long on how the neutral game goes. Whoever is interested, just hit training mode and see how Makoto’s normals fares against Gen’s. The only hit box Gen has that can compete with Makoto is his Crane Cr.Hp, which is good but hella hard to use. Axe kick is a low risk/high reward bet she can make to stuff his normals clean as well. Just try it and see, no Makoto should be respecting Gen’s footsies.

As for how the knockdown game is, I’d like Yeb’s opinion here. I got a setup that will make her DP whiff and is also Karakusa safe, but it’s easily blockable, it’s not really a mixup, all mixups are actually unsafe, afaik. If the Makoto player doesn’t know about it, easy win for me. if they do know (I generally teach this kinda of things to my adversaries if they ask, so I know how it goes), than things goes a lot worse, as Makoto gets more of a reading than I. If Yeb or any other Gen player can actually run right/left mixups while being safe to her reversal options, that I’ll concede Gen will actually do better in this situation than I know (and please, teach me how to do it because I’m really having 3-7 results against her.

5915

hmm lets see. Time to take the spectator seat in this thread. seems like if you ain’t placing in streamed tournaments your opinion is worth 2 cents (at least emanuelb seeks for facts though)

5916

I respect your opinion dude. Your Gen is good.
Tiers list would never be made in detail if the only people making them were top8 tournaments players.

Since we’re still talking Makoto vs Gen, and someone pointed at footsies : On paper every one of Makoto’s normal beat what Gen has, but walkspeed is a huge deal. Gen can easily run in and out of Makoto’s range and with that, crMP and stMK become pretty fearsome buttons.
PR_Rog often says when talking about Mak, reacting to her dashes is the best way to play againt her, and even if it’s hard ( 16 frames i really on the edge of human reaction time ), I feel like Gen has good options to stop Makoto from getting in.

I had the feeling it was 6-4 in Gen’s favor for the longest time. Seeing so many Gens disagree with that kinda chocked me at first. 5-5 is probably the correct answer I guess

5917

I find Makoto hard to put numbers on for any character, She’s like having sex after a month, it took you a while to get there but once you do it’s over in 12 seconds.

She feels like advantage Fei because she’s too slow and she can’t jump on Fei, he can just spam his buttons which shut down her ground game. Low health. I dunno, seems like there are just too many things against her in the match. Her st.mp (think that’s the button) is very good at shutting down Fei’s approach though I’ll give her that but then Fei doesn’t really have to attack. He can just sit there and protect his ass. She eats a lot of damage by the time she can run her game.

I always like to think of match ups as the one who has to take the risks is the one with the difficult time, in which case it would be Mak but I guess she is designed that way.

5918

Just for the record, I’m not complaining that people aren’t taking my points as fact, nor I think my opinion should count more than anyone else’s just because of some tournament placings. It’s just that at the end you have a lot of a different opinions, and no way to judge who is right. “Dude says it’s 6-4, the other says it’s 4-6, so it must be a 5-5” means that, in a way, you’re saying both players are wrong by a good margin with no evidence.

These discussions can only be entertaining, or someone might learn a thing or two at best (which is good!), but you can’t really have an agreement, which I think is Emanuelb’s goal.

TL’DR, for Makoto x Gen, I believe Gen lacks ways to stop Makoto from running her usual game, while his own stuff aren’t that hot against her either. Local Makoto player agrees with me that it’s a good matchup for her, though he is not sure if it’s as bad as I claim, for what worth mentioning.

5919

16 frames is basically the range where you have to expect the dash to react to it or have some kind of cue to react to it.

5920

You can cut your reactions down to almost zero though if you just fish and buffer , like against Rog dash punches.