5881

Oh man the irony too stronk here

5882

Gouken IS solid and many Goukens would question placing him in the bottom 10 or even bottom 15. Also unlike Oni, Gouken has very obvious holes that go far beyond “not being as good as Ken/Akuma/Ryu at X/Y/Z” or moves simply not being as good as they SHOULD be.

Gouken has fundamental areas that are flawed FAR greater than Oni’s flaws. In turn Gouken has some really good stuff too but the flaws he has are DEEP issues that even a casual observer can see how that is an issue.

  1. No low hit confirm whatsoever. (Only 1 of 2 characters in the game lacking the ability to perform a safe combo out of a low attack without a counterhit. The other being Cody.)
  2. EX Tatsu is his main reversal option and it can be low profiled which leaves him more vulnerable than many whiffed ULTRAS as it has a total frame count of 125F (That is the equivalent of Ryu whiffing TWO HP SRKs which are 63F total each.)
  3. All of his light attacks are +3F or worse on hit meaning he is incapable of hit confirming into a mid or heavy attack without a jump in.
  4. He has no normals that force standing on a crouching opponent except his overhead which he cannot combo out of.
  5. His fireball is great frame data wise (no question, it’s amazing there.) however in turn it is also the 2nd highest off of the ground besides Sagat’s high tiger shot making it easy to low profile. He also has no 2hit fireball without charging which makes them all very focusable.
  6. Most of his normals are only 2F active frames
  7. He only has one 3F normal (close MK) and he can’t hit confirm out of it as it’s only +2F on hit and doesn’t combo to his fireball.
  8. He has one of the worse backdashes in the game as it travels very slow, has a lot of grounded recovery frames (10F) and doesn’t go particularly far.

These are all a lot bigger issues than Oni’s blind spot past F+LK range but before ideal F+HP range or forward walk speed equal to Ken or his unsafe slashes. Arguably the only issue’s Oni has that are comparable to Gouken’s in terms of how much they hurt him overall is that he can’t make his reversal safe via FADC (Gouken’s reversal options are much worse but he can at least FADC EX Tatsu and his EX Demon Flip - Dive kick is safe if blocked.) and the fact that Oni’s fireball is subpar hurts his ability to approach characters with good fireballs and his ability to zone. Though Oni’s EX Fireball (both of them) are pretty solid and help make that weakness a little more manageable.

They both share the weakness of a wider hurtbox once they are hit as they share the same base model. However this is hardly an issue that is so major for either character that it holds them back in any SIGNIFICANT way but it certainly is an issue in a couple of a situations in a couple of match ups (like vs Gen). However that issue is one that plagues several good characters as well (Rufus, Makoto, Abel, Seth, Sagat, and Gief all have large hurtboxes that allow for unique combos.)

Gouken was my main in Vanilla SF4 and I still mess with him every now and again. His advantages are very good (Damage, resets, amazing fireball, has a dive kick, back throw setups, two viable ultras, some really great hitboxes, the normals that don’t have only 2F active have GREAT active frames AND hitboxes. Most notable being close HK, far HP and crHP and an incredible forward dash. Some of the best corner damage in the game. Easily in the running for best sweep in the game along side Ryu, Akuma, and Chun Li.)

5883

I don’t understand this about Cody.

5884

He can’t hit confirm off a low.

5885

He can still special cancel it though for punishment situations. It’s 3 frame.

It’s obvious when you play Gouken (or fart around with him) his damage mostly comes from the opponents mistakes rather than having access to it himself. He’s a character I’d like to see stronger in Ultra.

5886

Hitconfirm into a safe combo,right? Then even some characters can’t,not only Cody and Gouken. Honestly I ever think it’s strange for Gouken not be able to do so.

5887

No hitconfirm AT ALL. Cody an Gouken have no combos out of a low attack other thanto special cancel them into unsafe moves. (Cody crLK - criminal upper or ruffian kick.Gouken can do crLK/crMP into tatsu or crMP - LP Dash punch at point blank only.)

There are a couple of characters who have shitty options but have AN option. Makoto can do crLK - F+LP for instance (though this will be legit in SF4 when she can cancel to EX Fukiage after F+LP). Hawk has crLK - sLP but it’s an unplinkable 1F combo.

5888

Makoto and T. Hawk have command grabs and other mobility options though.

It hurts cody and gouken (cody more, since he can’t zone as well) a lot more.

5889

he also needs anothrr armor breaking mid range move, or a dbl hit command normal like so many already do, he’s limited there. perhaps the most character and situationally dependent of the cast.

just increase his walk speed and tighten his hitbox a bit and his normals could use a teeensy bit more hit stun…Tada balanced for 2k14

his only combo off cmd oh is cl.LP>lk tatsu…situational iirc

5890

His F+MP is only +2F on hit and doesn’t leave him in close normal range. He can combo out of it on counterhit though but that’s it.

5891

Cr.lk+f.lp is shitty for Makoto ATM,but yeah,with the new EX Fukiage the situation change a lot.
I don’t play Cody since a couple of times in Super so I can’t remember if he can do Cr.lpx2 into whatever (i.e. cr.lpx2,cr.mp–CU or RK). Sorry for the confusion.

5892

crLP - crLP - crMP - MK Ruffian is one of his main BnBs. Cody can combo out of lights fine, the issue is he and Gouken can’t combo out of LOW attacks (E.G. attacks that require you to be crouching to block.)

crLK doesn’t link/chain to anything for either character. Cody’s crMK doesn’t combo to anything either unless you hit on the last active frames AND it’s a meaty attack done overlapping with the opponent due to the pushback on hit/block being very high. Gouken’s crMK isn’t a low, his crMP is only +1F on hit and doesn’t combo to his fireball at the moment, in USF4 he’ll be able to use crMP - Hadoken as a safe hitconfirm from a low but only if the opponent is in the corner due to the pushback on the hadoken.

And as Otori mentioned, Makoto and THawk have command throws. (And Makoto can combo out of her overhead though it is very slow.) this helps alleviate the issue of not having a low hit confirm as they have other ways to open the opponent up.

TBH a command throw would likely fix almost all of Cody’s problems, but I’d rather they not go that route as then he starts treading into the territory of Abel or Fei in terms of design. He’d still be relatively unique but I’d like to emphasize other areas that are less at the forefront of other footsies / frame trap oriented characters. However this is a discussion for the rebalance thread rather than the tier list thread.

Gouken still suffers by not having a low he can confirm from. He does have the advantage of a dive kick and a safe special he can cancel to for blockstrings (fireball is fast enough that there is no gap between a HP and a fireball on block IIRC (or it is only 1F) and he has decent walk speed (same as Ryu). Plus Gouken is more of a zoning character in most match ups meaning he is spending a lot of time far away or mid range. The MUs where he needs to be getting in closer however are the ones where his lack of a low hit confirm (and more importantly, his lack of a decent hit confirm from light attacks at all.) really start to show up.

5893

Not with the current status of EX Zonk FADC.

5894

Are you saying EX Zonk is too good or not good enough?

Either way there is an issue with your logic as you have no idea what sort of command throw I meant or any of the properties of it. You can’t assume it’d be too good or not good enough, perhaps I mean a 3F spd? Maybe I mean as 12F startup flip throw like Fei’s? Maybe something in between, a slow command throw that you can’t combo out of either? Maybe the command throw only does 10 damage. Maybe it does 300.

I didn’t give enough information to make any sort of statement regarding how powerful it would be and how much you’d need to tweak the rest of his toolset if at all.

BTW, it’s not like EX Zonk is particularly good. It’s 16F startup 3F active, can’t be confirmed so you almost always have to spend the 3 bars, can be low profiled, whiffs on many attacks with lower body invincibility, and whiffs on jumping opponents. The main use for it is the fact it’s invincible for 16F so it can be used to beat delayed crouch tech in a similar fashion to how Mago often uses Fei’s DP to beat either delayed crouch tech or delayed DP against opponents he has in the corner.

Funny thing is, even if you gave Cody a command throw the majority of his offense could be circumvented still with a neutral jump. Command throw would whiff, EX Criminal Upper would whiff, EX Zonk would whiff, HK Ruffian would likely whiff or get stuffed, At worst you’d eat 80 damage from a B+MP and air reset into a better position unless you are in the corner. :stuck_out_tongue:

As I said though, this would be a discussion for the rebalance thread, not the tier thread. I only mentioned it because 2 of the characters without a viable low hit confirm of any sort have command throws. Hakan is lacking in a GOOD low hit confirm as he only can combo crLK into itself (and only while oiled) but it’s a low hit confirm none the less (and again: has a command throw) I do find it rather annoying that Hakan’s F+LK which is called “step LOW” isn’t an actual low. Makes no sense to me.

5895
  1. Hakan´s F+HK hits low, only oiled up. F+LK not hitting low isn´t a big, rather than that CR.LK isn´t link into each other.
  2. Weren´t you always saying that EX Zonk FADC is punishable or was something else?
  3. A cmd grab needs tools and normals, which are working supplementary to it, when trying to open up people, but of course it depends on the type of the throw. Hakan´s SPD wouldn´t be that good, without a crouch, Slide FADC, meaty slides and the command normals he has(F+MP or even some other).
    I was just wondering, if Cody´s tools would work with a command grab.
5896

Alright, I haven’t updated the tier list in a long time, so: The Updated Tier list - http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6905/a2oo.jpg

I added some colors to it. Tis’ the season, right ? Merry Christmas, guys.

5897

Makoto-Guile matchup is even. I have some doubts even in vs Juri matchup.

5898

That tier list looks far from what I would consider legit except for the top 2 spots

5899

Then feel free to make your own “legit” tier list (whatever that might mean)

5900

Well Honda being higher than Sakura and Oni being dead last dont exactly seem accurate if you ask me.