I appreciate all of the input and the relatively warm reception.
Just wanna put out my two cents on Chun V Hawk. As long as I control my distance, I win but if Hawk is ANYWHERE near me I get grabbed to death. Chun can keep distance well though so it’s pretty doable.
In regards to the Chun vs Hawk match, once you get ticked, do a HK upkick reversal. That will get you out. HDR hawk has a whiff animation, you’ll kick him 3 times for decent damage.
If you want more tips in this match up, let me know. I’ll try to break everything down as much as I know.
Hawk in ST is a kabillionfafillion times stronger then in HDR. In HDR, chun has a fair chance, in ST, in my opinion, is not winnable. I play hawk and chun so I have a pretty good idea.
Really? Does safe dive do nothing for you?
Only at low to mid levels of hawk play does the safe dive help. At high level hawk play, the ST knock down dive gives you enough time to walk up and sako tick into SPD.
What that means is, if you get hit by a dive in ST, you get looped to death after. Prior to being able to sako tick, the ST dive kind of sucks. But after sako tick execution is perfected, the ST dive turns super sayan but jacked up on steroids.
The easy inputs is the same thing. Once you get good enough with the 360 motion, its just like easy inputs anyways. So that buff didn’t make hawk better, it just made him easier to pick up for new players.
Another thing the command grab whiff did to make hawk worse in HDR was it ruined Hawks easy 720 setups. Before the whiff, in ST, it was possible to buffer into 720 very easily. This is lost in HDR so you have to just do it raw all in 1 shot now.
I used to think that the safe Dive was better for Hawk in HDR, but the threat of a knock down Dive in ST is a powerful incentive to not throw any fireballs.
ST Hawk players use the Dive so well and so creatively that even footsies at the wrong moment are dangerous and can get you knocked down. That plus the negative edge Sako Typhoons make ST Hawk incredibly dangerous. It’s a credit to all the ST Hawk players who have upped their game in recent years, and having played damdai and PAPER quite a few times on GGPO, the whole Ryu vs Hawk match has changed in my mind. It’s almost even if not slightly in Hawk’s favor IMO.
The safe Dive is good for getting in, but without the threat of a knock down, I can trade at least half the time and stuff it at least a quarter of the time. So I think in the long run, that hurts Hawk more than getting in. And if Hawk had both Dives I think that would make him too strong IMO. All Hawk really needed was O.Hawk’s normals, knockdown DP and fixing the crouch Strong hitbox and the reversal DP bug, that’s all IMO.
I kind of disagree on Hawk being slightly favored. While I think that Hawk has ridiculous comeback potential against shotos, a strong Ryu player can zone a good Hawk player. Of course, this requires absolute perfect execution on Ryu’s part, since he literally cannot let a j.jab be unpunished, and he can’t be knocked down. Once a shoto hits the floor, it’s pretty much all-over against a Hawk that can pull off sako ticks and safe-jump installs perfectly. Believe me, I’ve tried everything in the book to try and get Paper’s Hawk off me, and none of it is guaranteed to work.
tl;dr. So at the intermediate-to-high level, it’s Hawk favored. At top-level play, Ryu is slightly favored.
I don’t agree. Look at this video. Its kurahashi, the best ryu player in the universe right now. He plays against yakatori, which is a good hawk, but no where near hiroyans level. Look at the opportunities that kurahashi gives to the hawk player. Yakatori couldn’t convert his knock downs to wins because of his limitations to his execution, but if it was hiroyan, that match would have been over.
http://www.frame-advantage.com/video/playlist?name=Kurahashi+ST+Ryu&index=9
And look, speak of the devil. Hiroyan, the best Hawk player in the universe vs kurahashi, the best ryu player in the universe. At the very highest level in this match up, the only way ryu can do damage is by fireball chips, but hawk can dive fireballs on reaction. As you can see, its pretty hard to not get knocked down by hawk. Once kurahshi falls, hiroyan says “your ass belongs to me, and you’re not getting it back until the next round”.
http://www.frame-advantage.com/video/playlist?name=Kurahashi+ST+Ryu&index=16
I rate this match up 6-4 in hawks favor. Hawk can tank and fuck up many times vs ryu, its not big deal. Ryu fucks up once, good games, peace out homie. Thats a modest rating. But I’m willing to bet that if you line up Japans top ryu players and have them do a kumite on Hiroyan, the shoto bodies would be dropping like flys. At the very very highest levels of play, with super godlike reactions, its probably closer to 7-3 in hawks favor.
You would probably benefit greatly from doing the following:
accepting that you are (1) flooded with ideas, emotions, and assumptions based on your experiences so far, but (2) at the same time recognize that this game has a VERY long learning curve and that, like layers of an onion, you will continue to work more and more out the more you play, study, and chat with others.
studying the game, watching top players, and chatting with knowledgeable people will help you jump forward along the learning curve.
So the first point is just to let you know “it’s ok” to get riled up or freak out, and that the answers you want to know WILL be there for you as you progress.
And the second point is a way to get yourself those answers at a faster rate.
As an advocate of the value of watching top players, check out the following 3 vids of tops players in the Chun vs Sagat matchups:
Lights Out vs. Mongolo Robocop
[media=youtube]wuwQOtG7N4s[/media]
Cvital (Chun Li) vs. paulkachou (Sagat)
[media=youtube]NphmZzJPk4U[/media]
EG Justin Wong (Sagat) vs. VOLTECH (Chun-Li)
[media=youtube]Jv1YEz2vonM[/media]
Watch each one and note what the Chun is doing. Specifically:
how do they start each round (jump? block? special move?)
how did they deal most their damage to their opponent (tiny chip damage? random jump in with massive combo? set-up super?)
what moves did they use the most (literally count the number of each move: jumping short? jumping forward? standing strong?)
what specific distances did they keep from their opponent for most the match, or what distances did they move to when they had the opportunity
what moves do YOU use that you don’t see them using at all (now try to use only the moves they use)
how much time do the rounds last in the games they won?
what set-ups do they use when they are trapped in the corner
what set-ups do they use when the opponent is trapped in the corner
MongoloRobocop, CVital, Voltech, and Zass are all top HDR Chun Li players. Look on youtube for more videos by them, and trust what you find in terms of it being solid techniques that you can study, learn, and copy from.
HDR is a game of matchups. Your character has a mind numbing number of moves, but for each specific matchup it narrows down to a pretty small and easy to digest arsenal that you want to be employing. STUDY the matchup by watching top players. Select one matchup and spend some time studying it from gameplay footage, and figure out how to narrow down your game until it’s a simple and easy to employ strategy.
^ Thanks for the tips, really. It’s just that I look at the mechanics of the game and just wish I could balance it myself. I don’t like certain aspects, like grabs. Why should it ever come down to a 50% chance of success? I don’t like luck factors. Doesn’t anyone else agree? Also, I hate guessing games like VS Vega. Honestly, no match-up should ever come down to that. These issues mount up fast. I really hope Capcom keeps rebalancing SF2 until there are no tiers or bad matchups.
You don’t understand how balancing an asymmetric game works
The game’s mechanics, their properties, and their tuning are all a part of the choices made by the various game designers in the creation of the SF2 series. The series has enjoyed 5 distinct revisions, and many of the unintended base elements were removed within the first few iterations.
While each game in the series has experimented with new design, the underlying core game mechanics (including throws and ambiguous attacks) are largely “working as intended” and exist to fulfill a distinct (and deliberate) design function within the game. As I mentioned before, I believe that more experience playing and understanding the game will help you develop a “bigger picture” understanding of what the game is, how it works, and how to get better results when playing it.
That said, perhaps HDR or the SF2 series are just not your kind of game. There are many, many different fighting games on the market these days, each exploring a different way to “build a better mouse trap”. Perhaps by looking into these games you will find one that fits what you are looking for. And perhaps, like many others in the community, you will find that trying these other games just ends up increasing your awareness and appreciation of the SF2 series of games.
^^ Not true. The game is comprised of decisions made to better your chances of victory through certain mechanics. If one character has moves of both great quantity and quality and the other doesn’t, you SHOULD make the appropriate changes to balance them. You can’t tell me that Chun Li has as many options at her disposal as Sagat- especially at a distance or in a corner. His fireball variations alone double his options at a distance. Sure she has an answer to it but that doesn’t mean the math changes; he still has twice the firepower.
^ I’m a fan of SSB, SC and SF. I’m an amazing SSBM, and okay at SSBB. As for SC, I’m above average at SC2/3/4 (I don’t play 5). I play SF4 and I’m pretty good. I know fighting games well, and I simply see where there’s room for improvement.
The fact that SF2 has often been updated shows the game has never been perfect, so couldn’t more changes be due? The game’s can still evolve, and should.
I’m slowly seeing the “big picture.” It’s tough though, but you guys help.
This really depends on what your idea of balance is. Chess is considered to be an extremely balanced game, but it’s also very symmetric, and doesn’t add much variety or spice with its original rule set. A truly balanced SF game would be nothing more than Ryu v. Ryu all day everyday, but that gets boring, which is why a superior version of balance would be asymmetrical balance. This can be seen in RTS like Starcraft, where all 3 races have different strengths and abilities, but generally none of the races are extremely over-powered versus one another. Although Zerg is extremely powerful in the beginning of the game, they tend to lose their effective when dealing against mid-high level Protoss units.
Chun Li actually has quite a lot of options available to her, but you’ll have to devise a way to counter certain strategies. Sagat has an extremely powerful zoning game, but that’s his character, all he has is a good zoning game. While Chun Li does have a floaty jump-arc and limited fireball options, she still has one of the best ground game pressure and super in the game. Therefore, you utilize those things to counter his fireball strategy, since you can easily just walk forward and threaten with a super on reaction to a fireball. Believe me, I’m sure plenty of Sagat players dislike her powerful super, but that’s the way the game goes. You have an obstacle that you’re faced to overcome.
SF2 has not often been updated. ST went basically unchanged for nearly 14 years before HDR came around, and even then, it’s still in contention whether or not HDR has better “balance”. Some changes made sense, other changes did not, some changes made sense on paper but didn’t quite work in execution.
Rather than hope or pray for another re-balance or for Capcom to patch the problems away (like they currently do with modern games), you are best off just focusing on how to deal with your tough matchups. Even the worse matchups are winnable as long as you have a thorough understanding of the matchup, and are willing to work on it.
Random: On the tier list, chun is at the top meaning she has more advantages then disadvantages. This is not subjective, she does have more advantages then disadvantages. A lot of good advice was given here so if you actually do want to get better, you should pay attention and actually try using the advice before complaining about the game mechanics. Otherwise, like zaspacer said, this game might not be your cup of tea.
Sorry if I come off looking like a dick head, but every time someone gives you advice, you come back with more complaints before taking the advice. Also, someone using a top tier character complaining about balance issues is super annoying. Come to think of it, you are probably trolling all of us right now and I just took the bait.
^ I took the advice and have been respectful and thankful. It’s helped. I’m just a perfectionist who likes to complain; I see issues. I created this thread to recieve advice and vent. I’m not trolling.
Her fireballs disappear, which almost seems like a crime. They have a long downtime after firing, and they’re charged too. But at least she has them. However, I find her Upkicks to be too inferior to similar charged Upkicks like Dee Jay or Guile.
It seems taboo to criticize the game but I’m just sharing my opinions. I’m not a pro, or the game’s developer, you know. My opinions hold little weight but I’m here to share them regardless.
One other thing. I just recently played a T.Hawk, KILL_JOY_001. I played him almost 20 times, and never got a win. He switched to Ryu and lost but not once did I get his T.Hawk. I rarely stand no chance against someone, but maybe it’s just me. I admit I have little T.Hawk experience. Any input?