10141

Immediate j. mp is more for countering immediate j. lk, when both players are trying to hit on the way up. If she is right on top of you with j. lk, it’s better to either walk under and hit her from behind (j. lk doesn’t have a very big cross up hitbox) or jump back and, depending on spacing, j. mp/hk.

Upkicks has 4-10 frames of invincibility afterwhich she is vulnerable in this position, then falls straight back down again at the end. If you hit them with the small initial hitbox, then you can push about 3/4 screen outside the corner because you don’t have time to cleanly jump over them. DR, though, while it only has 2 frames of full invincibility, it has 11 frames of only being invulnerable in the head afterwards, plus lets you fly to the other side of the screen, which is where Dictator wants to be in this match up. So, unless someone is using a high attack at the same time you DR, you should get away cleanly.

LOL, typos at my expense.

I have a tendency to challenge to conventional wisdom when it seems flimsy to me. It may border on trolling, but I consider it at least constructive trolling, because people make things like “Chun owns the air” true because they don’t challenge her there, or “Dictator doesn’t have a good escape” because they’ve had DR stuffed before when someone was just trying to keep them from jumping out and they never learned the right situations and timings to use it. Similar to how many people said Chun’s new ground SBK is garbage, but I almost never used the old one and I use the new one all the time.

10142

Alright Kao, enough with the Honda hate already! LOL. I’ll agree with you that some characters have a bit more of an execution barrier than others, but no character is “easy” to play at a high level on this game. Honda might not need to learn any hard combos to do well but to play at a high level you pretty much HAVE to learn to do things like safe-jump consistently, know all your ranges, etc. Also doing things like keeping constant HHS pressure and doing HHS combos isn’t easy at all.

And try playing Honda against any upper level (insert fireball character here) and then talk to me about easy, LOL. I’ll give you that safe-jump followed by negative edge Ochio is pretty low risk/high reward, but setting most characters up for that usually isn’t very easy (the old "if Honda gets in he deserves to get some damage). And Fei has a ton of tricky 50/50 set-ups that all can lead to big damage for him. They may not be as safe as some of Honda’s set-ups, but he has more of them. Fei has a lot more tools in his toolbox to mix things up, Honda has bit more of a limited arsenal (basically any reversal shuts down 90% of what Honda is trying to do).

I think that when players are starting out that there are some big differences between characters, but once you get to the level that most are on here, things even out.

Except Vega, he is Easy Button easy. LOL, Just kidding (maybe).

Oh ya, GGS to everyone lately (though I haven’t been able to play much) And especially GGs to Gunshow yesterday, great to see you made it back safe.

10143

Cauld’, I’m curious: have you played HDR Dictator much, and gotten the DR to work well for you as an escape? Because my experience is the same as IronDD’s.

10144

I pretty much just play Chun, but I’ve personally witnessed Dictator players putting it to good use in this match up. It works when timed well against max distance jump-ins, and can be used to escape Chun’s safe Neckbreaker, her st. strong frame trap, plus, of course, tick throws. Then he goes flying across the screen and I have to chase him down again.

10145

I don’t know what to say except that I just haven’t seen that happen. I’ve sometimes managed to walk under, more often I’ve just retreated, but I’ve never seen a time when Dic and Chun are in the air at the same time and Dic’s mp beat Chun’s lk. Bison would have to be in the air first, and if that was the case that would mean that Dic was on top of Chun, in which case Dic should likely be using mk or hk anyway.

But if you’re trying to escape from the corner, it’s the rising part of each character’s respective mood that is the most important. Yes, Chun may be more vulnerable when she’s on her way down, but she’s considerably less vulnerable on the way up. In the case of trying to escape from the corner, that’s what counts. Yes, DR has its measly two frames, but since the rising part isn’t an attack at all, it very often just gets hit, especially since if Dic is being corner pressured.

Corner escape DR is just so unreliable that you don’t see many Dics of any skill level using it. Ultimate Bison never used it from my recollection and neither did The Phantom Baron, who were perhaps the two best Bisons I’ve ever faced. Alpha Omega ZX, who is just about on the aforementioned player’s level, actually used it with some success, but I noticed the last time I played a set with him that he seemed to drop using the DR for corner escapes entirely. Either that, or it was getting stuffed and I didn’t realize it. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it certainly isn’t as reliable as any anti air in the game that is an attack on the way up, be it Flash kick, upkick, Shoryu, or otherwise.

Heh, yeah. I meant to say no DISrespect, but I’m glad you caught that.

I’ve got no problem with challenging conventional wisdom. In fact, I think critical thinking should always be encouraged. Again, I’m willing to admit that maybe I, and the majority of players, have yet to use the DR to it’s full potential in HDR. However, I’d say that fact is due to the move being unreliable, at least at first. Reversing with a move that isn’t an attack in the first few frames of animation and has such a tiny invincibility window ain’t easy, or even practical.

10146

That directly opposes my experience, because j. mp stuffs everything Chun does unless she is above him or, in the case of j. lk, significantly above him. It kind of makes me wish that HDR had replays where you could bring up hitbox mode and go frame by frame and point out exactly why move X beat out move Y in this instance. Jumping moves can have lots of weird angles where they come together and then there’s the possibility of hitting someone during the start up or recovery.

Like I mentioned before, I use SBK all the time. It has a bit more invincibility than DR, but it also has the problem of being vulnerable without having attacked yet. It does have the problem, though, of leave Chun coming down right behind the other character afterwards, but because most people attack low after their high attacks, it avoids a lot of stuff.

I’d also, honestly, put ALPHA_OMEGA_ZX as the best Dictator I’ve played, even above the two you mentioned, though it may just be that he is the best at playing to my weaknesses. He’s always slipping out of my traps and luring me into his. I’m also pretty sure he makes good use of DR to do it, but I don’t recall specifics. I’d actually like to hear his thoughts on this match up.

10147

Well, admittedly I haven’t played Ultimate Bison or TPB in over a year at this point, and I’d like to think that I’m a better player now than I was over a year ago. So maybe the fact that I put up more of a fight against AOZX than I did against the other two was due to me being better. So AOZX may indeed be the better player. In any case, I’d like to hear his thoughts on this as well.

You hear that KAOSPIDER!?! Get your bro on here!

10148

It’s weird you would say that as a Honda user; that particular matchup being especially difficult for Vega.

10149

ggs to stress factor, hebrew12_16 and cyu_337 who had a nice honda and vega. It was good playing again. And Possum I dont think you can add Dhalsim to add a fireball character as a difficult matchup. If anything it has to be the easiest of the fireball projectile throwing characters for Honda. Just saying.:slight_smile:

10150

Hey, Rabid Marsupial. Please know that I respect you and any other player that can kick my ass (and even those that can’t yet lose with dignity). I also hope that my comments don’t come across as denigration of characters based on my hatred of certain characters. I think I’m able to separate my personal feelings regarding the specific Fei matchup from the ease of using a character in general.

You acknowledged that Honda is not a terribly execution-heavy character. You also conceded that he has many low-risk/high-reward setups.

I’m sure that you wouldn’t dispute the claim that Honda has an inherent advantage over most non-projectile characters to varying degrees (e.g. Bison, Hawk, Cammy, Fei, Zangief). Additionally, it is arguable that Honda goes even with the following projectile characters: Chun Li, DeeJay, Dhalsim. Furthermore, the argument can be made that Honda fairs well against these non-projectile characters: Balrog, Vega, and Blanka.

So let’s say that Honda has a good chance of winning against 12/15 cast members he’d face (not including mirror matches, obviously).

My argument is that it is not difficult for a solid Honda to impose his will in many matchups.

Of course, shotos can be deadly to Honda but versus non-projectile characters he simply has to block, counter, trap (if Honda feels like doing the work) and then rinse and repeat. This isn’t an especially difficult gameplan–he has 4 reversals for God’s sake! Versus the other projectile characters (Chun, Guile, DeeJay etc.), I’ll grant you that it is a bit more complicated: block, avoid fireballs, trap, and then rinse and repeat. I’ll venture to say that this isn’t exceedingly difficult either except against the best of Guiles. But even then, one knockdown is all that it takes to literally end the match versus him. I’ve seen you do it first hand, Possum!

But, even if you exclude specific matchups from the discussion about whether or not a character is easy to use, Honda still fits the bill for one. The hand slap is essentially a normal move in HDR which more than makes up for its slightly reduced damage. The headbutt can often dominate his favorable matchups singlehandedly. The stored Oichio often becomes icing on the cake when added to his already formidable throw arsenal. Plus, it is often easier to read and then react to your opponent’s actions than it is to guess what they are going to do–I believe Thelo wrote a thesis supporting this point, didn’t he? (At the end of his article, he even suggested that people use Honda for best results!)

So, in conclusion, we have a character with a low execution requirement, the luxury of being able to wait to counter his opponents in most matchups, fairly simple yet damaging mixups/trap options (is it even possible to misjudge a jumping MK crossup?), high damage output, a special move that is only infinitesimally more difficult/time-consuming to do than a normal (hands), and another special move that is not especially difficult to do but can crush much of the cast (headbutt).

Are these points well thought out, Possum? With all that said, I still hate losing to a mascara wearing fatass who fights in a skirt.

10151

In my opinion the easiest character to play well (not master) is Blanka. Just spam jump attacks into bite. You will beat like 2/3 people in scoreboard doing this. When you feel like playing midgames just do 2 jump attacks in a row or tack on a cr. mk to h ball to complete the low/throw mixup. Honda at least takes good reflexes to do well with. Vega walldive spam is an honorable mention (lol context).

10152

I think all characters are hard use except for Gief…

10153

I actually think Zangief gets more out of a skilled player than any other character. The difference between a good Gief and a bad one is pretty significant, at least playing as Chun. It could just be that as soon as you start losing as Chun, you’re pretty much done, so a good enough Gief will steamroll you while a slightly worse one will never get in and a significantly worse one will be eating Neckbreakers in the corner all day. He does have a pretty easy-mode defense, though. Some Gief players seem completely lost when they play other characters and don’t have Lariat and cr. throw to save them.

10154

Its been AWHILE since I been on here. I got back into the game and seen a lot of new names and old names. GGS to freeway, W_GENZO_1,Ozzye_rage28,bigjeff-99,Dathreats,bloodyredrum01,Oli-Vee,WLbajathong. I am staying on PSN for a little then leaving it forever. I will try to stay on as much as I can.

10155

Well, first off Honda does not have an advantage against Chun and DJ. DJ is right up there with Shotos for Honda, if not worse. There just isn’t a lot of really good DJ’s out there, and I’m good at executing the throw loop against him (hee, hee, LOL). Chun also has a slight advantage against Honda, she controls the tempo of that match, Honda has to react to what she does. His much higher damage output and a few tricks keeps it close, though. And yes, Poison, I do think that Honda probably has a slight advantage against Sim in HDR.

As for the non-fireballers, he does still have a pretty big advantage against most of them. Gief is much harder in HDR, but still in Honda’s favor. He kills Blanka (I find it funny that scrubs try to counter pick me with Blanka, I guess scrub Hondas don’t know how to play that match-up). I’d say that Bison, Balrog and Vega are all close to even against Honda, Vega and Balrog being closer than Bison.

Plus HHS didn’t just lose chip damage in HDR, it has much less priority. Every character can hit him out of HHS easily if you just “spam” it.

It took a LOT of practice to be able to do that big damage set-up to Guile, Kao, so that one goes against your easy execution theory. Being able to pull off some crazy HHS combos and throw set-ups does save my rear end quite a lot, but a lot of them actually are much harder to pull off (correctly) than they look.

Heck, Kao, you play me to almost even with Fei when we play, I hate that match-up. But then maybe your just better than me, LOL. Also no offense was ever taken, LOL.

Yes, I’ll admit winning with Honda is easier than with a lot of characters, but again I’d say that most of his high level stuff isn’t easy (which is the same for just about any character). You don’t see many really good Hondas. I’ll give you that it’s pretty easy to get to average with him (much easier than getting to average with Fei, for instance), but taking him to above average and doing well with him against really good players (especially since he has some of the worst match-ups and the ones that are way in his favor are against characters not many people use) isn’t easy at all.

While we’re on the subject, everyone says Sim is the hardest to use. I’d say that Sim just takes the most experience (takes longer to learn). He doesn’t really have anything that is hard to execute at all, he just has so many moves and each one is very situation specific. It takes a long time to be able to know which one to use when on reaction.

10156

Good points, Possum. Sim is not an execution heavy character but learning his myriad of moves and then accessing them at just the right time is a very impressive feat. He’s one of the characters that I’d never use (along with Hawk because, well, look at him! He looks absolutely idiotic.)

It’s fun talking theory fighter from time to time. We even did so without name calling or flame wars. I wonder why it’s so hard for the people over in the general discussion board to do the same. I suppose that the PSN guys are just a more erudite ilk. I’m going to Google the term “erudite ilk”–I wonder how many times it’ll turn up… 1 hit. Haha!

Possum, play me in a 1 vs 1 set sometime, will you? I’m embarking on a tour of sadomasochism. I hope to play the best of all of Fei’s worst matchups and get the matches recorded so I can see if there’s any hope aside from playing locally and slapping the controller out of my opponents’ hands.

My system is currently kaput but I might sign on when I visit my brother from time to time. If I see you online, I’ll send an invite.

10157

“Plus HHS didn’t just lose chip damage in HDR, it has much less priority. Every character can hit him out of HHS easily if you just “spam” it.” Can you tell me how to do this? It seems good Honda players like yourself can do the HHS and you have to block. Then they’ll stop and start it up again and again you have to block. How can you hit the HHS while it is motion? Unfortunately as a Sim player while the HHS is annoying, having to deal with the sumo splash which Sim has a difficult time dealing with and the many throw options with high priority is sickening. Couple that with the high output damage makes me talk in toungue. :slight_smile:

Anyways good games to bigjeff-99. As stated nice T.Hawk bro.

And yeah Sim is difficult to learn due to the fact he doesnt have anything specials that stick out like Ryu/Ken/Sagat with an uppercut, Honda with HHS,sumo splash, ChunLi with her lightning kick, etc. to name a few. Also his damage he dishes isn’t great either. He really is all about controlling the match and frustrating your opponent. You have to be mentally strong when playing him which is why I struggle at times. My opponent can get some big leads due to high damage they inflict and just causes mental break downs on my part or I can dictate a match and then one mess up and game over. Thanks possum. :slight_smile: lol

10158

I agree with what you’re saying about Sim 100%, but I can’t see how you could say the Honda/Vega match is close to even…

I found a fairly good, older discussion on sirlin.net, where Thelo writes:
*
"I personally believe that Vega is one of Honda’s easiest matchups. As Honda, I win perhaps more often against Vega than I win against any other character in the game, including Zangief, T. Hawk, Fei Long and Cammy. That’s why I list the Honda-Vega matchup as 7-3 in Honda’s favor. "*

http://forums.sirlin.net/showthread.php?t=1874&highlight=easiest

10159

lol guys, I’m gone for a few days and all of a sudden everyone is on the Claw is easy bandwagon. I really don’t get why some of you folks think he is so easy. He has some good match ups, but then a few very difficult even if they’re mostly even match ups. He has good range, but not a lot of priority and he has been nerfed big time since ST. Tokido may say he is bs, but Tokido is mainly a ST player and not a HDR player. There is a video of him playing HDR against someone’s Sagat, and all he did was wall dive. Somehow he won, but in HDR, a strictly wall diving Vega is a dead Vega. Vega’s best options in HDR is his ground game now and a clever wall dive cross up. His air game is really weak for the most part. Sure, if you are too slow, he can get you with a wall dive, but that would be your fault and your mis-timing errors. Did everyone forget about how little his damage output is? It seriously sucks ass. Ever try a Vega vs Gief? Yeah, Gief literally needs to get you twice and it’s match over. Vega vs Gief has to be played pretty much perfect, there is very little room for error and Gief has a lot of normals that are higher priority than Vega’s. In a non-laggy match, the only thing saving Vega’s ass in that match is his reversal should Gief get on top of him. If you miss one reversal, all Gief has to do is tick loop you twice and the match is done.

Most of Chun’s normals beat Vega’s when up close, and even at a distance poking her is dangerous. Vega doesn’t even really have a good AA option on Chun other than flip kicks, because all his normals will get beat. Wall diving on Chun is very difficult against one who has good timing and can just kick the wall dive out of the air. The only thing saving Vega in this match is speed and cross ups.

Vega vs Bison is a very difficult battle too, you can’t wall dive Bison because you’re going to eat j.MP and pretty much all Bison’s air attacks beat out Vega’s. The only thing saving Vega in this match is the fact Bison has no AA option if Vega happens to get on top of him, OR, if the Bison player makes a mistake and lets you knock him down. Then you can maybe get 1 or 2 wall dives until he wises up, and just punches you as you recover after he lets you whiff.

Shotos pretty much hurt Vega big time if you poke too much. You have a few options against them, some very good options which I think tips this in Vega’s favor, but shotos have superior combos which can tip the match in their favor if the Vega player makes a mistake. I really consider this one of the easiest match ups for Vega. You have a lot more room for error in these match ups I think.

Fei should be an easy match up, but laggy ones destroy me since their close quarters game is superior to Vega’s and usually a roll back gets them in. If they get in, they can do some major damage. Fei’s cr. HP goes through a wake up flip kick which really hurts Vega’s wake up game. However, I haven’t had many experiences against a local Fei match so I can’t say for sure whether this is just because of distance or this is normal. Usually, it should be easy for Vega to keep Fei at bay, usually, but I’ve found it difficult on the few I’ve played online. I’m separating online vs offline though, because I don’t have enough experience with the latter to really comment on this match.

Dhalsim vs Vega, if Dhalsim gets close, the only thing saving him is flip kicks. If you can pull it off online consistently, but I think this should be an easy match for a clever Vega with little to no lag. Up close and especially in the corner, Dhalsim wins if you have poor flip kick timing. If you can keep D at a distance, then it should easily be in Vega’s favor.

Honda, wow, what a tough match up. Wall diving is a serious no no, damage output is pretty limited compared to Honda’s and both players are pretty much playing keep away while whittling away at each other. Very difficult match up, but should the Honda get in close and you miss a flip kick, match over because of Honda’s much greater throw range and damage output plus the ability to either throw or normal to mix up a Vega in close quarters. 1 whiff and it’s match over or the Vega player at a serious health disadvantage.

Guile and Dee Jay can both be troublesome. I think they’re mostly even, and I hate playing Guiles sometimes although it really shouldn’t be too difficult. Dee Jay can be a little punk bitch because his normals will beat out pokes and jumping in is asking for trouble. Neutral jumping works best I think and waiting for a whiff, challenging but not impossible.

Hawks shouldn’t be too difficult, but if they get in, forget about it. Two slam tick loops and the match is over. You can’t wall dive a Hawk. You can severely punish a Hawk easily though. Vega’s damage output is very small and Hawk’s is huge. Difficult for a Vega player who makes an error in which the Hawk capitalizes on.

Cammy can be a major pain in the ass because of how fast thrust kicks come out and the fact her drill cannon is pretty much safe on anything Vega can answer with. You may get lucky and the Cammy player does a dc that gets too close and you might be able to kick her before she gets out a thrust kick, but forget about safe dc’s because she’ll have recovered enough with enough distance to thrust kick any poke you can do. Timed wall dives can help but then a change to a thrust kick will pretty much beat it, all thrust kicks have the same recovery no matter the distance so getting in can be difficult. Vega’s best options are to ground game and wait for a whiff to punish. I think it’s a pretty even match since Cammy doesn’t have a ton of damage output IF the Cammy player is very clever and tricky.

Blanka is probably my worst match up. You can’t poke Blanka because of roll and shock. A smart Blanka won’t blatantly roll and get punished on whiff, a smart blanka will combo the roll. You can’t wall dive a blanka becauseof the vertical ball. Options are pretty limited, plus the much greater range of throw for Blanka vs Vega makes him a very difficult match up. A turtling Vega is asking to be bit to death or tic toc’d, and Vega’s aggressive game against a Blanka isn’t very good.

These are my observations, but keep in my my connection is pretty poor so some stuff I see might be slight roll backs I don’t notice that make it seem like something beats out Vega’s stuff more often than not. I’ll agree Vega has some good match ups, but he also has some very poor ones and shitty damage output and really shitty defense. He can’t take damage well, and his speed makes up for his shit damage output. He is based on distance fighting and keep away, and a tricky cross up and speed, but no way in hell is he easy. Especially against the high damage characters who can knock out most of his health with a combo or get him dizzy after 3 hits. Vega is a weak ass character but a lot of fun and joy to play once you get the hang of him and start doing silly shit to mess up an opponent. His strengths are speed and punishment, and a few above average normals.

10160

There is a reason why Vega is top tier…If you’re losing to Gief then you need to level up your Vega…Max range wall dives & pokes should be enough to keep Gief out…Also since when does Gief have a throw loop?