That is what i was expecting. Because it was only raw talking by Mago.
He didnt really took his sentences serious back then and it was only a slogan to get some attention.
Forget Mago,Bullcat is the man
They could all blow me…
Eh whatever although I recently picked up sagat hes fun to play. Im still dedicated to gouken and will try and master him to the fullest.
If I make it to evo next year i WILL be reping gouken along with the muay thai duo. In the meantime I need to find some small local tournys >_>
Mago would never use Gouken for competitive play. Not because Gouken’s poop or anything, just that he lacks certain things tournament-level Japs look for. For example, he can’t hit-confirm jabs into combos.
I thought Goukens Close standing mid punch was a hit confirm to jab
it does link to cr. jab, problem is jab doesn’t link into anything substantive. I suppose you could hit tatsu off of that though.
Yea lol. Well its something 
Gouken doesn’t have a good wakeup, doesn’t have good normals, doesn’t have a good anti-air (c.HP/c.MK is NOT a good anti air, SRK is), and doesn’t have damaging combos starting from jab (which greatly limits his ability to tick throwing).
Most of the time Gouken’s damage comes from punishing opponent mistakes, which are not often in the gameplay level Mago moves.
Anyway I keep insisting Kongoshin is, theorically, the BEST move of the entire game, but it’s so hard to use properly that nobody still has taken Gouken to it’s maximum level.
You must not play Gouken very much. His problems aren’t his normals or anti-air. In fact all of his normals are safe on block except cr. fp up close. And cr. fp is great anti air, it just doesn’ work if some one is trying to cross you up, you either have to block or use standing cl hk.
You have some ideas that are interesting and accurate - ie. that Gouken is at his best when he can unload a big punish on someone.
You also have some that are way off base… that c.hp and c.mk aren’t good anti-airs and only SRKs are, and that kongo is the best move in the game. Kongo, best move in SSF4? Put simply - no. Not even close. It isn’t even in the top 50.
Again, in my opinion, cr.HP/cr.MK are not good anti airs, are decent anti airs. If we speak about anti air pokes, cr.HP of Ryu or Akuma are good anti airs. His normals are not good too, are decent. Chun-Li’s and Bison s.HK normals are good normals.
Speaking about my theory of the Kongoshin is very simple: THEORICALLY (keep always this in mind) it is the best move of the game because it counters anything that’s not a throw or an armor-breaker move, even some Ultras.
Imagine you could program SSFIV IA to use Gouken in a way that he could use the Kongoshin every time possible to counter an attack: the result would be that he obviously would always win, either to any Human player, or to another CPU character programmed to its maximum performance. If he gets attacked by some move which breaks Kongoshin which you can’t counter (ie. Blanka ball breaks armor, but can be counter with a simple jab) he blocks, if he gets attack by any another move which you can’t somehow counter, or don’t want to, he uses Kongoshin, if there’s an attempt to throw him he techs it. Pure win (chip damage wouldn’t be enough compared to the damage the Kongoshin does).
So, in theory, in PURE THEORY, it is without doubt the best move of the game. It’s just we, as humans, can’t see in the very first frame of every move like a CPU can do, because our reaction time and mindgames comes here to scene and limits the Kongoshin uses. Anyway, if a player with really exceptional abilities to read gaming patterns and playstyles of opponents ever shows up, and manages to use the Kongoshin in a way no one have seen before, Gouken is top top tier inmediatly. It’s not impossible to happen, just highly unlikely, just it was highly unlikely a Mozart would appear to music, but it happened.
/Divagations off
**^ But we are not playing theory fighter, we are playing Super Street Fighter 4. **
Kongo is one of the best moves in the game, but it is dependent upon someone attacking you, so it’s a reactionary move. So I can’t deem it more useful than an srk.
Do I love the move?? hell yeah, but an all purpose move like an srk will always be the best move in the game just b/c it has so many applications and can be used safely in almost any situation with an FADC.
You stated earlier that Gouken has poor wake up… so if a missed Kongo = Gouken being put into an untech position that totally makes his gift his curse (which I don’t think any Gouken mainer will disagree with).
No theory here… Kongo beats a lot of moves, but no one is going to guess right every time the opponent attacks. In fact, most Gouken users are only a couple of wrong guesses witih kongo and being punished to leave that shit in the bag for the entire set, just b/c this game is so grab friendly and b/c most people can’t tech well with Gouken so it makes it that much worse. The key is with setting your kongo up, especially anti air kongo, is you have to land cr. fp when the opponent jumps in to ensure that they keep on attacking THEN you can keep mixing in kongo on their attacks.
As far as Gouken’s cr. fp. there are only a couple of characters that I am aware of that can either beat it and/or trade with it from max distance b/c of their hit boxes when attacking. Sakura (j. hk), Ryu (j. hk), and Vega (j. hp), and they all can beat, trade with, or be beaten by cr. fp but it depends on the spacing of the attack (that’s were kongo plays a big difference), but I play with Gouken ALL the time what would I know about cr. fp???
Things to know about kongo: For the most part you can’t kongo between block strings. There are a couple of cases that you can like Sagat’s cr. mk > low tiger shot and guiles cr. roundhouse, but they aren’t too many.
You can kongo before/between/after frame traps which is a plus for Gouken but you will have to be right on the read. If you use the srk before/between/after the frame trap and you have 2 EX bars you can just FADC to saftey with little or no consequence. And the SRK’s can beat out armor breaking moves and Focus attacks, something that can be a little difficult for Gouken to punish if you aren’t ready for it. I’ve seen many of Goukens fail thinking that kongo is the end all be all answer to his woes (keep rolling the dice one may land or you’ll just lose all your health first).
In pure theory, you can program any character on the game to guess right 100% of the time and punish the opponent. Imagine programming Ryu vs. Gouken and setting Ryu to grab, U2, or hurricane Gouken every time he does the kongo and srk his ass on everything else? Ryu would win everytime, or even Dan for that matter.
I really hate trying to compare Gouken to the rest of the cast or shoto’s for that matter, b/c he’s just different. And cr. fp works wonders for me, especially since they improved the hit box on it (for example in Vanilla you couldn’t hit Blanka jumping around up close, but now you can). And this isn’t just my opinion or theory speaking, this is FACT.
I think most really good Gouken users have the ability to read their opponents patterns and plays styles and that’s mainly b/c he really doesn’t have a good go move, no jabs > hit confirms, srkless wake up, and his normals don’t give you a ton of hit/block stun. And if you don’t believe that, I’m pretty sure there are a lot of Gouken’s who will love to prove you wrong.
Top Tier normally goes hand in hand with how brain dead you can be and still be decent using a character, someone who doesn’t understand the mechanics of the game will clearly get raped using Gouken so even though he can be top tier in theory (as everyone if you programmed them as such), in reality he’s just a real solid character that you need to know what the hell you are doing with to win, b/c you can’t abuse many of the bullshit tactics that other characters can. Somebody referred to it as an “Easy Button” a while back lol.
Edit: And here is your proof of what separates kongo and srk.
Gouken vs Ken/Ryu is pretty much a 5/5 match as long as you know the rules to the srk.
So if Ken and Ryu is 5/5 match up, tell me what else makes them 6/4 vs. Cammy and Gouken 3/7 vs. Cammy???
Super Street Fighter 4 Tiers ? Character Rankings : EventHubs.com
This has always been the reason I’ve been begging for tatsu to = srk. There should be a low hit on start up, and then it goes into his animation, and it should have the same properties as srk. It’s not that hard to fix and it gives the opponent max punish if you whiff (more than an srk), so I never understood why the change wasn’t made.
If he had that, you’d see him winning tourneys.
Capcom if you are listening…
I’d like to hear that there will be changes with the upcoming location tests and in turn be dlc/patched in but I doubt it.
I would so love this
“”"This has always been the reason I’ve been begging for tatsu to = srk. There should be a low hit on start up, and then it goes into his animation, and it should have the same properties as srk. It’s not that hard to fix and it gives the opponent max punish if you whiff (more than an srk), so I never understood why the change wasn’t made.
If he had that, you’d see him winning tourneys.
Capcom if you are listening…""""""""
THIS OMG THIS! Ive been wanting his tastu to have these properties for the longest. I remember back in vanila days when I first picked up gouken and I was trying to anti air and wake up with tastu and failing hard. If they lower the hit box and increase start up time it would be a dream come true lol. I mean keep the long recovery time when he lands on the ground thats all good.
Oh and my take on CHP and Cmk as anti airs. They have been working wonders for me. I love doing Cmk on people doing empty jumps trying to bait my kongo. from this point on they are scared to jump in on me and we start playing footies till one person out smarts the other.
I still feel gouken is a solid fun character and in the right hands he can win a tourny. Although i feel his demon flip could be a little better.
Also I don’t know about u guys but I feel gouken demon flip parry should have more armor frames like 2 or 3. Or at least on EX mode like elfurte’s EX run.
Yes this would be very nice but most likly won’t happen >_>.
Also
The parry should be able to start up a little sooner and have instant recovery like Akuma’s DF punch. I never understood that, especially since the move does 0 damage to your opponent. You actually take damage doing it. LOL. Gotta love it.
I thought absorbing your opponents attack and setting yourself up to punish was the point of the move. The recovery when landing places a lot of limits on the move.
But, it can be fixed… the real question is… will it???
Probably not man. It’s best to let that idea go. The SSFIV suggestions thread for most characters were huge, including Gouken’s, but a lot of character’s tools were nerfed.
I think the best route to take is to specialize in one or two other characters that cover Gouken’s bad matchups. With a roster of 35 it’s necessary unless you’re willing to deal with the brain dead options your bad matchup will have over your character.
Although Im not for counterpicking, I happen to play two other characters that can handle gouken bad matchs no problem lol.
I still have my fighting pride and I won’t be so quick to switch to adon or sagat if im having problems with gouken. I will learn the matchup and play the best I can.
About goukens demon flip counter, Im some situations not alot i was able to absorb an air attack and punish but not often. I try and bait wake ups with it but some wake ups have multiple attack frames therfore breaking the armor. I really agree that it should start up faster and have quicker recovery when landing. Honestly Gouken NEEDS this. The developers did not put much though into the usefulness of this move and they prob never will.
Sigh guess we just got to use it to our best ability