Guess the Japanese notes are wrong because I can’t seem to recreate the throw loop they listed. Either way, if Birdie gets in the corner against Cammy, he basically loses.
For a DLC character she has a lot of the basics you need. Meterless invincible anti air, EX reversal, 3 frame buttons (including the only other 3 frame low in the game), generally buttons that are better than most give credit for, good forward walk and other things that make her a lot better than Bison or Gief.
She’s good at controlling the mid range while also being very good at dealing with projectiles. She has a low profiling projectile that can sail under other projectiles while she can absorb the one flying at her. She doesn’t get looping throw pressure due to the space that’s created after her throw, but her throw has decent range and gives her opportunity to set up another store or offense. Her b+HK is really underrated and underused since it’s essentially what would happen if Ryu’s b+HK was cancelable on both hits.
She also is the only character that can whiff cancel a special and then VTC (LK fuharenkyaku fireball) which allows her to very safely start up offense with her V Trigger.
She has an advantage there but it’s not auto loss by any means. If she does a walk forward throw after a throw not only does she lose positioning, she’s gonna get hurt bad.
Cammy can meaty after a fthrow but it just takes one guess to screw all that up. Walking toward can actually be scary against a really good birdie, which I’m fortunate enough to have on my friends list
Cammy straight up does not have a fthrow loop. She has a walk forward throw walk forward throw kinda thing. It’s fast enough thst people get caught by it but it’s slow enough that you can react when you’re ready for it
As I said before, the same thing happend again like the last few times. I’m getting tired of it.
Anyways.
Necro said there is no range Cammy can safe whiffpunish Birdie.This is straight a lie.
The minority of Birdies use st.hk in the neutral,most focus on cr.lp,st.mp and st.mk. If you stay at this range and you can whiffpunish him pretty easaly.
Birdie might have a range advantage with some normals,but he lacks the movespeed to make use of it against a char with TopTier Walkspeed and range.
Cammy also got st.hp, this move has not only the advantage because it’s a heavy, it also has a disjoined hitbox,what makes it easier to “eat” a move with it.
There is a range Cammy can play against Birdie,the other thing is, is the Birdie willing to use buttons or does he know that she can do this?
I checked some of the Diamond Cammys (Valhalla,Osayu) and looked for Birdie and Zangief Matches.
What I saw with Birdie was mainly a rushdown festival from both sides,Cammy basicly forces Birdie to play a different game,than he would play against other chars. His V-Skill is kinda pointless in this MU, EX Divekick is a huge treat for his midrange game and he can’t use his hanging chain at all,since Cammy can punish it even from fullscreen. He has also absolutly no answer to her frametraps,unless he’s in V-Trigger or wants to use his V-Meter, do I have to tell you that she can punish basicly everything she blocks? Even V-Trigger bullheads with their huge pushback can be punished with reversal arrows and H DP.
If we look at Birdies normal damage he does with his mainwhiffpunish st.mp xx L/M bullhorn 200 damage. It’s kinda pointless how much life you have against Birdie after 5-6 of these things every char will be dead.
Comming to Zangief. What I saw was mainly, lets say interesting. I found a bunch of matches Osayu had against Itazan and it was interesting.
Osayu lost the first match pretty badly, like real bad. But then he played completly different. The second match had only 2 jumps in total and both were perfect reads. Osayu just used the ground and outfootsied Gief so hard,that Itazan had no spot to attack. cr.lp was effective shut down by st.mp and he had no way to jump in, Osayu beat every dash perfect with st.lk. The entire match looked like Giefs worst nightmare.
Of course Zangief only needs 3 good reads to kill Cammy,then again he only needs 3 good reads to kill every char.
Cammys life doesn’t matter shit in Birdie and especialy Zangiefs MU,because they will both kill every char in 2-3 errors regardless of how much health they have.
You see, I don’t belive simple bitching about MU’s just because people lose it.
It was the same in SFIV, at the beginning was everyone bitching how bad Poison was for Cammy,after a while they figured Poison out,learned how to deal with her.Out of all sudden the Mu was even, that was like the moment I scratched my head,because that was what I said since the launch of Ultra.
I don’t base this on my own experience,since I barely to never play these chars offline, but I do a lot of research and test situations and the options you can deal with them.
It turns out that Cammys only flaw is her health/stun in the end. And health/stun are like 5% of a MU,while tools are 95%.
For someone who tries to tell me he’s better,you don’t know how her throw works in the corner right?
Cammy has a corner frametrap after every throw,it leaves her at the perfect space for a bunch of different options.
You can either, walk up and throw again.
walk up and press a button
stand there and do st.hk
f+hk
taunt
I prefere the taunt,since I love it to taunt.
So she has all these wonderfull options and Birdies fastes button,is a 4f cr.lk.
This is a situation were Birdie is absolutly fucked, his buttons are worthless at this range,his defence is non-existing(not that he ever had defence).
You want to tell me you can’t take advantage of one of Cammys best strenghs against a char who has abolutly no defence close up?
Sure it’s not a throwloop perse, but it’s a 50/50 situation anyways,she can either walk forward and throw or walk forward and press a button or just press a button, her Fthrow leaves her at the perfect range for all of this.
It’s funny right?
The prima Guide says Cammy has problems against Chars like Dhalsim and FANG,yet Cammy is the worst MU for these two.
Xian has been saying that about Fang for a while. Plus it’s just generally objective that that matchup would be shit.
Doesn’t every single character have throw loops in the corner?
Depends what you mean by throw loop. Can cammy throw and then throw again? Yeah, but it’s not a proper throw loop. A proper throw loop to me is a throw that allows for a meaty throw again. Ryu has a throw loop.
Cammy can do a throw loop off her back throw as a side switch but that’s one rep.
Cammy’s forward throw allows for a walk up throw/meaty mixup but delayed buttons will be solid against this. Or a jump fwd tech os. Nobody is punishing that at all really right now.
It’s better to say that cammy has throw pressure in the corner rather than a throw loop
Where’s the most updated matchup chart?
Never decided to do one since I didn’t think there was a point with so little time left in the season and the game getting radical frame and hit box changes in Season 2017.
What I’ll most likely do is start this back up as the new season starts and just work on the matchups actively as time goes on.
It will be fun to look at how some MUs change with the nerfs/buffs and see if Guile has at least a MU that is less than 7-3.
Gotta get used to Guile’s new cr hp, with its cc ability… man this is gonna be a fun normal now
He probably has…
Vs Urien.
Alright FINALLY going to get the ball rolling with this matchup chart thing. Wanted to wait for the new character to be revealed and generally get a chance to really think about the matchups for myself so I can have a starting point to conjecture with everyone else.
**Gonna lay some ground rules **here so it doesn’t turn into the SFV Lounge 2 like the balance thread did. If you MUST talk about the things below, please TAKE IT TO THE LOUNGE. It will not be tolerated here.
Please don’t get into stupid ass SFIV vs SFV wars or whatever wars you wanna get into. 3rd Strike vs SFIV lasted long enough, SFIV vs SFV doesn’t need to last anywhere near as long. Don’t bring up other SF games unless you just need to make a pure observance of something between the games. We don’t need pages of which SF game is great for you or which one is giving you growing pains and hurting your relationship with your friends and family.
Please refrain from overly positive or negative talk about the game in general. If SFV has saved your life, that’s great. Don’t need to know that. SFV is killing what makes SF fundamental for you? Great, don’t need to know that. This thread is for objectively talking about matchups and strategies for the game. It’s not meant to be a diary for your SF shit. That’s what the lounge is for.
**Please also keep large lists of your ideas for improvements for the balance to the improvements thread or the lounge. **Theoretical added balance changes generally just derail discussion on what is actually going on with the game and generally get into unnecessary back and forth conversations that don’t really explain the current meta. Bringing up a thing or two that needs to be touched up for a character is ok, but we don’t need long ass lists and discussions about things that aren’t within SFV’s competitive reality.
**
You have your warning. ** There will be a VERY LOW tolerance policy for the shit above. It derails threads like this way too easily so it’s not going to be put up with. General requests to fix things if you are messing up will be forwarded. If not, mods will have to get involved.
Other than that, hope to get some good discussion and hope we’ll be able to keep up with everything since we’ll be getting new characters pretty regularly throughout the life of the game.
This is the mock up matchup chart I made for Season 2. Not really very organized or put in order. Just based on ideas I’ve had for the different matchups. I feel I have a good bit of info for the Ibuki, Chun, Juri and Cammy matchups since I do play all of them or at least am pretty familiar with Cammy as a character in general.
**
Test Matchup List**
Matchup Strength (just theoretical numbers from the list, not to take too seriously)
Cammy 123.5
Boxer 123
Laura 120.5 Urien 120.5
Rashid 116
Guile 115.5
Necalli 114.5
Zangief 111.5 Juri 111.5
Ibuki 111
R.Mika 110.5
Karin 110
Ken 109
Bison/Dic 107.5
Nash 107
Birdie 106.5
Alex 105.5 Akuma 105.5
Chun Li 103
Dhalsim 102.5 Vega 102.5
F.A.N.G 93.5
Ryu 92.5
If this were theoretically to be a real list, Cammy and Boxer would be the 2 best characters in the game. Which I think some people would already feel is common knowledge since they are just absolute powerhouses in neutral and also in invading neutral while having very few to no real bad matchups. Rog struggles a bit vs a few grapple characters and Cammy probably only really struggles with Gief while being slightly less good at winning a few matches than Rog.
Got people in the middle of course that are generally close enough to be considered pretty viable and honestly not as bad IMO as people make them out to be. Then you would have Fang and Ryu at the bottom with a big disparity in matchup strength compared to the others. Those two would say are getting close to useless for tourneys until a patch, but still generally competitive.
Again this is just matchups coming off my head from my knowledge and watching some videos and such. I’d like for @LordWilliam1234 @AceKombat and anyone else to come help in making a more official (visually) matchup chart and put some more concrete numbers together for the characters I only know in some off theory.
Laura’s MU chart is terribly off. This is how it should be:
Akuma 5.5
Alex 5.5
Birdie 5.5 -> 5
Boxer 5.5
Cammy 5 -> 4.5 (or even 4)
Chun 4
Dhalsim 6 -> 5.5 (not sure but I don’t think it’s so bad either)
FANG 6
Guile 5.5 -> 4/3.5 (LMAO were you drunk??)
Ibuki 5.5 -> 5
Juri 4 -> 5
Karin 5.5 -> 5
Ken 5 -> 4.5
M. Bison 6
Nash 6
Necalli 5
R. Mika 5.5
Rashid 5.5 -> 5 (I never played many Rashids but I can’t see what she has more than him)
Ryu 6
Urien 5.5 -> 4 (again, LOL)
Vega 6.5 -> 6
Zangief 6 -> 4 (Jin pls)
I speculate that the same 2 clows as always will now come in to talk Cammy bad.
Befor this happens, I want to say that this seems pretty accurate
In S2, I feel Cammy does not lose to any one character, matches feel like they are the Cammy players to lose. I cannot think of a match where she is wanting for options. From my perspective, the other characters have to take more risks vs her, if that makes sense.
Birdie matchup so bad he doesn’t even show up!
No but seriously, it’s probably pretty even now. Maybe slight advantage laura. Some birdies think slight advantage birdie though. St mp and st mk hard to deal with for birdie
I guess you don’t understand the words mock up, test or theoretical lol. I even said the only characters that any real legitimate numbers were from the characters I play. Don’t be bad readers already
The Zangief 4 6 thing was a typo btw
You forgot Birdie btw
In any event I’d like to get @itzpookiie @melflomil and anyone else who mains or plays Laura well to conjecture with you and check your numbers
Can’t format well on phoneFixed up on PC… changes (marked in bold and on the right side) from what’s on the sheet for Ken imo:
Ken VS:
Akuma = 5.5 - 4.5
Alex = 5 -5
Balrog (Boxer) = 4.5 - 5.5 → 4 - 6
Birdie = 5 - 5
Cammy = 4.5 - 5.5
Chun Li = 5 - 5
Dhalsim = 5.5 - 4.5
F.A.N.G = 5.5 - 4.5
Guile = 4.5 - 5.5 → 5 - 5
Ibuki = 5 - 5
Juri = 5 - 5
Karin = 5 - 5 → 4.5 - 5.5
Laura = 5 - 5
M.Bison (Dictator) = 5 - 5
Nash = 5 - 5 → 5.5 - 4.5
Necalli = 5 - 5
R. Mika = 5 - 5
Rashid = 5 - 5 → 4 - 6
Ryu = 5.5 - 5 → 5 - 5
Urien = 4.5 - 5.5 → 5 - 5
Vega (Claw) = 4.5 - 5.5
Zangief = 4.5 - 5.5 → 5 - 5
I’d debate a bit Akuma (change for 5-5) and maybe Cammy (change for 5-5), but I can understand it from its current placement, so I’m okay with the decision.
EDIT: Edited Balrog (Boxer) for 4-6 and Guile for 5-5.
EDIT2: Edited Nash for 5.5.
Long irrelevant bump EDIT3: Rashid and Karin edited. Feels relatively the same in S2.1
I don’t see how Laura has a slight struggle against Ken @OceanMachine . I feel that it’s 5-5 , no more or less. Sure in S1 it felt terrible for Laura imo, but this time around she gained some consistency changes in strings that now feel decent to follow along… and back then in S1, doing meaty stuff as Laura against Ken was risky because meterless DP people could scout her setups and make her approach too tame… now, universally, they can’t do it unless meter is involved (and Kens usually save some for his scary V-Trigger potential).