At this point idk what it is you are talking about. There are op things with counters. If it DOESNT have a counter it isn’t op… it is BROKEN… literally. I’m not saying FA was broken, nor that about CC. However some are complaining about CC “as if” it is actually broken. There are plenty of ways around them for every character. That doesn’t mean that some aren’t super powerful or annoying as shit… but this is an FG, there will always be annoying shit to deal with and you get rid of one thing and another thing pops up, EVERY time. You have to find what you are comfortable with. If you aren’t comfortable to with CC idk. They’ve been in the game since it’s inception as the primary mechanic outside of v trigger.
Shinryuken is actually pretty good. It is not meant to be used for combos, its a 7 frame startup half screen single button anti fireballs whiff punishing tool into good damage.
The idea is to deny fireballs and make to allow Ken to whiff punish from distances he can’t normally whiff punish from. Its a pretty decent neutral tool.
You won’t need it in all matches, but it certainly have a place in some.
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Like I’m having a really hard time understanding why people are happy with moves that 1 hit confirm and are safe on block and are ranged (Karin cr.mk, YZ st.hp, akuma st.hp, Laura fhp, etc etc) but are against CC. Like the only big difference is the ease of confirmability. And if thats your gripe then your gripe has to do with execution not balance and at that point we bring back 1 frame links so that people with good timing (not just people with good reactions) can jump into the execution fray.
Like who wins? The guy that hit his easily confirmed 1 frame looks everytime but who can’t do the harder 1 hit confirms, or the guy that that can easily do the 1 hit confirms, but has major troubles pulling off 1 frame links? These aren’t the same type of execution.
To me, the difference between a CC and a 1 hit confirm is negligible. If my opponent do the cr.mk confirms then it may as well be a MUCH more powerful version of a CC… plus it’s faster and some hit low… that what it’s like to play against punk. He’s basically got a safe on block sweep that leads into full combo on hit and starts up in 6 frames or whatever Karin’s cr.mk starts up in.
Cr.mk is probably atleast half the reason why punk is as good as he is, so confirms, no matter the type, are important.
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I’ve played too many SF games where the whole point of the game is to swing a medium or heavy button that goes into the world on hit. Therefore I don’t really give much of a shit about CCs. Same shit I’ve been dealing with for the most part. A lot of these buttons are buttons that are hard to whiff punish, but on a good day a human being still can whiff punish them in a good spot.
Which is why the only thing I hated button wise is the stuff in IV where you’re mashing on Elena or Rog lights that are literally unable to whiff punish by anything but a robot and go into the world on hit. That stuff I can’t stand and glad it’s gone.
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Going to bed soon, but I’ll look for people to game with tomorrow. Or if you can let me know if you’re around in 15 minutes lol.
I stopped playing sf4 before Elena was a thing. But I also grew up in rog county aka SoCal. Jabs were annoying but… idk. Good throw game kills em imho cause once you get in on them it’s a wrap in most games.
I also came up in games where there were ridiculously good jabs… cough rolento gief cough in alpha 2 and 3 etc etc
The “counter” in this games were always ranged lows and ranged heavies and mediums or jump them… kinda the same as in sf5. But in those games with the higher da,age you got exposed for fuckups more. So you kept them jabs in check lest you eat more than life to some even more fucked up BS.
It’s the lack of “other” bs that is sf5’s fault. I told people this, but people couldn’t balance 200 pounds on seesaw…
If you have 50 options and option number 50 is the best… so you nerf option 50… all that happens is option 49 becomes the best. Nerf option 49 and you get to option 48… all the way down to 1 or when people are (finally) happy or people get too bored and just leave and the game sucks.
We nerf ranged CC in this game and I guarantee you the next thing on the chopping block is ranged cr.mk confirms or shit like YZ st.hp
People either won’t be satisfied till they are safe from damage even when inside jab range, or the game becomes so non dynamic that everyone quits.
Would be a fun experiment were it not for the fact that the fgc loses no matter which result comes to fruition.
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Yeah no matter how many nerfs the last patch brings, people will convince themselves that there’s still too much OP stuff going around and their ideal game that feels like Street Fighter is just 5 nerfs away.
I already hate how weakened CCs are now. Many of them are a curse to get since they knock down and interrupt a combo following. Some other times an EX reversal is blocked and the best punish involves NOT using your CC because it actually follows into less damage.
Listening to people suggestions on how CCs should be nerfed further won’t do any good because secretly their position is “erase them from the game entirely” disguised as small changes. Like someone going to a sushi restaurant and start suggesting “how about putting less rice and more corn derived product” when what he truly wants is to eat tacos. Those are better shown off the door while the people which actually likes what is offered keeps enjoying them.
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Im biased because i dislike the random nature of neutral CCs but i think slightly raising the games execution barrier isn’t a terrible idea. An issue some folks have with SFV is that every player above probably silver can do the optimal shit.
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What makes a crush counter random and a low confirm like cr.mk…
Not random?
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Yeah I didn’t mind characters with OD jabs in ST/Alpha/CVS2 because they usually were just about priority and didn’t chain into the world. They were also competing with mediums and heavies that had ridiculous hit boxes so there was more of a fair ground in that sense. Like yeah ST Deejay and Rog had retardo chainable lights, but they still just didn’t seem as dominant in neutral and conversions as the worst of IV’s stuff.
I think that’s part of how IV was built in general though. Like part of the reason stuff feels “stubby” in V is that some buttons are abnormally long in IV. Like Dan’s s.MK is ridiculously long in IV for no reason at all and not comparable to his other buttons in other games (which you could say he needed, but it definitely goes past Dan’s range in older games). I believe the bigger stages and 3d aspect kinda dictated the idea of everyone needing to have basic buttons be longer than they usually are even. Not to say V buttons are long enough, but there’s definitely stuff in IV that’s longer than it is in most other games.
Shotos generally were shorter buttoned characters in ST and Alpha to compensate for their fireball games. Marvel 3 Akuma was purposely made short buttoned as a visual throwback to CPS/ST Akuma (on top of for balancing reasons). You can clearly see his buttons are designed to visually pair with his ST buttons. It wasn’t until SF3, CVS2 and going into SFIV that they started becoming longish button characters. In ST and Alpha their sweeps are considerably shorter than their c.MK’s and c.MK fireball doesn’t combo at max range. In IV their sweeps are even longer than their c.MK’s which is more to like 3S or CVS2.
I don’t mind CC either, I just think they should be even or negative on block especially if they aren’t a charge character. But I also think they should all combo easily or somewhat equally at least. One shouldn’t be for 140 damage and require a 2 frame link while another is for 200 damage that requires no timing at all.
I do think the game would be really interesting without CC and with the priority system. I think it would be a bit more neutral focused at the top level.
Only because all the top tier CC leads into a combo and corner carry into a steam roll usually.
Cammy would still be good as you don’t really get CC with her as much but guile, akuma, rog, menat, ibuki bison, urien etc etc would all have very different match ups and be nerfed.
Can you imagine Rog with with now CC HK and one that just hit you and that was it. OR bison doing st HK getting a counter hit and it was what it was outside maybe of like a lk or mk link.
I think that noone should be able to combo anything other than jab after CC dash.
Or remove dash combos completely.
The damage means more than the button pressed. It feels like it isn’t earned. 200+ is excessive for neutral conversions if no one is spending meter.
I think it feels pretty cheap when Karin loads up on damage from a stray crouch mk even when she is spending meter.
not really. CC’s are part of the SF5 experience but that doesn’t mean they can’t have any bad qualities or have found their true identity in the SF5 system. you can always improve something as shallow as Crush Counters. right now they seem to not really know their place in the game and i think they were better as a comeback mechanic of sorts. the problem is there’s already Vtrigger and Vreversal that are doing that so CC’s are just mostly being used on offense with the already insane +oB moves that currently do it better. it doesn’t really stick out and seems to occur in a random nature.
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A high level good ken player from my region uses it like this, when it works it’s dope.
Unfortunately, Ive also seen him kill himself quite a few times because his epic whiff/fireball punish whiffed him into a flaming nightmare.
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Oh my.
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Well, your explanation is based on risk versus reward, not on random versus non random. Having said that, that’s mostly just a balancing issue. In older games you ate more damage from further ranges from safer moves that started up quicker and sometimes didn’t even require meter.
It doesn’t feel bad in sf5 if you aren’t pressing terrible buttons on defense or in the neutral, like a loon. What character do you primarily use BTW?
Because one relies on a counter-hit within a very small window so you press it wildly hoping for the priority system to land you a crush counter, and one can be used as a whiff punish on reaction or used when you see someone walking backwards?
As for the rest people were talking about earlier, I can’t speak for anyone else but whenever I bring up changes to CC I don’t expect it to actually happen or any of it to occur without changes anywhere else in the game. The whole design of the game is a mess so it’d be impossible to only change a couple things (IE only CC) to make the game better. Talked with @Skiegh at length about it before.
Basically SF x TK is how I wish SFV did the CC system. Most characters have solid buttons and can whiff punish random swinging into solid damage (balancing risk reward), and you can store CHs via the Charge Attack Dash Cancel mechanic (like Alex’s V-skill but way more interesting) so you can threaten a “CC” through a whiff punish or what have you, reducing the random feeling people complain about. That and not every move that had a special CH state was only tied to a heavy (which isn’t necessarily a problem but more variety in what buttons could get those kind of states was nice).
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What?
You are crushable for the entirety of your move startup. That’s why it’s easier to crush heavies than jabs and mediums. There is nothing random about it. I stick out my CC when I think my opponent might get hit in startup frames, same as I stick out my confirm when I think my opponent might get hit doing god knows what. In fact CC is LESS random because the situations in which it works are MORE SPECIFIC than normal confirms. A cr.mk can CH you, it can hit you low while walking backwards, low while walking forward, low while just not pressing block, low while you recover from a move…
Whereas a CC can CC you when: 1. Your move is in startup or active frames. 2. When you get punished for doing an invincible reversal.
It’s anyhting but random.
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people are salty at some CCs (mainly the safe and plus ob ones like like Urien and Akuma) because you can throw them out without much worries, especially thanks to the priority system, and the return for doing so is huge
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