521

How the helll is Bison weak to jump-ins outside of wake-up when he has C.FP and S.FK…? Anyway…

^ SETH : The FB thing is a mindgame. Hes not reacting to your FBs, hes predicting ( i think… 90% players online will be anyway). What you wanna do is just throw FBs whenever he does (let him throw one first, then you throw one). Wait n see if he jumps then SRK. If he doesnt, do a couple quick FBs to bait him, then wait… basically its not too different to other characters jumping over your FBs, but Seth is just a little quicker. you wanna tempt him to jump by making him thnk that youre a scrub who doesnt know hes gonna jump on you… soon as he thinks that pause n smack him.

That FB starting point is super important IMO. If Seth gets that first jump-in hit, hes free to do all his run around BS, if you get the hit he has to approach (eventually), at which point you counter. Getting close to him is kinda hard, yah, but just take your time. Its like Sim really. Walk forward a lil, see what he does. If he keeps using his F.FP then try to FA next time or counter with C.MP whilst OSing a fireball (allows you to follow the FB, dashing in). If hes one of those scrub Seths who jump everywhere then make sure you are constantly changing your spacing (use dashes in and out, it messes up the spacing for his head-stompy move) whilst being ready to punish with DP or sweep when he lands.

Obviously yah, Seth with ultra is gonna do the really shite trap thingy. If youre down on health there isnt really much you can do to avoid it. Youre gonna have to bait him to do it then dodge it (probs by jumping EX tatsu) .

Oh and VS his teleport when its not knockdown situation. Just instantly chuck an FB (can use EX if you got them… not bad damage VS seth n obviously gets u a knockdown). Dash in as soon as you throw it. But dont dash right up close to him. Give a bit of space, just outside sweep I would say (though Im not testing this right now). Basically you want a range where you can take advantage of your superior FB speed, close enough so he cnnot jump on reaction. That’ll make him jump on prediction, giving you the oppurtunity to punish.

End of the day I think that winning this match comes down to playing ultra defensive whilst making the Seth believe they can hit you. Get that health advantage, no matter how minimal it is, then defend it like crazy by a) blocking (DUH!) b) baiting him with FBs, c) mixing up your spacing so he ends up whiffing jumps. If you do these things correctly n defend your lead, Seth will be forced to close the gap, at which point it becomes a game youre far more accustomed to.

522

You havent played a good one then. Dee Jay has the best jump-in mix-ups. You aint gonna be auto-correction DPing jump pressure from a decent Dee Jay.

What you want to do is defend your range outside of C.MK and be weary with DPs cause he damn sure can f**k you up for doing them. Its often worth just dashing forward when you see him jump (if its at a particularly nasty distance), then moving soon as possible back to that C.MK to F.FP range. You have to play a solid zoning game basically, but DJ does have good options to get through them. Personally I use FBs then buffer SRKs in a pause to bait n punish Sobat, but thats not 100% solid.

523

hey guys, i played my friend’s Dictator probably 20+ matches yesterday, and i just have some questions on how to deal with things.

  1. what is the best thing to do when stuck in his scissors kick pressure? iirc, c.mk whiffs after block or another sk will actually go over it, sk hits hadoken before it comes out - the only effective way i was able to turn the tide was to random dp sk, but i’d rather not have to rely on something random…

  2. what are some things you can do when he has ultra? obviously not fireball, i tried jumpins a few times, but hes also obviously looking for this and wants to j.mp>ultra.

this matchup really annoys me, especially everytime i think c.mk will hit dic’s foot i’m in for a surprise - oh no it doesnt!!!

are there videos of ssf4 ryu v dictator? swear i havent seen any…

thanks

524

To DarthPaul1982 :

That’s the problem . There really isn’t many great Dee Jays out there . But overall in ranked , higher ranked Dee Jay don’t seem to rely on cross-ing me up on knockdown . They rather go ahead an throw out Air Slasher , walk-up , play mind game . I don’t know how much PP and BP the guy was ( 3,800 PP and 11,??? BP probably ) but rather pressure me with Sobat .

Is this on wake-up ? In the case of being untech’ed knockdown I’m sure thinking about range of Cr.Forward is the least thing I’m thinking about but rather seeing if he want’s to try me to do a unsafe DP or go ahead and cross me up ( Again I never met a Dee Jay that done a safe-jump cross up , so I usually auto-correct DP ) .

Is this a jump-in from Dee Jay while I’m applying zoning tools ? The only thing to be concerned is his short jump Cr.Short ( I might be mistaken on the input . ) , but otherwise it’s a free DP considering his jump isn’t fast .

It’s not bad to do , but online may be hard to react for that , in which it’s possibly better to just go for untech knockdown from what I suggest pressing St.Jab ( If hit confirmed ) -> Sweep .

To sowutifmahsnsux :

For 1. : Cr.Strong guess if you see Scissors Kick coming out . Also while random DP is bad , don’t always believe it’s something to stay away . If you see Dictator not mixing his pattern up , go for one if your anticipation level is high .

For 2. : Sometimes it may be strict timing for Dictator to counter your hadouken with Ultra II . First off take note if he is inputting a lot of QCF’s or not . Throw out all the fakes you like that would look like your doing a hadouken ( St.Short , Focus Attack Dash , St.Jab , etc. ) and throw one when he least expects it unless maybe he is doing a lot of QCF’s . This may be the only thing the Dictator is thinking in mind , just waiting for your Hadouken , so just try to focus more on offensive play-style , or with the risk of wasting a bar , throw a EX Hadouken . I’m sure the recovery is a lot less than a regular Hadouken . You could also be able to FADC forward -> Block after a hadouken if he did Ultra II right on your first few active frames of start-up Hadouken .

Dictator’s box is smaller than how he looks . As I said above , your main normal attack tools for this match should be Cr.Strong , Cr.Forward . Hadouken may help as a poke as well .

There are videos out there , check on over at Iplaywinner .

525

^ whoa, IPW is a great video resource, thanks

526

Vs dhalsim cr short buffer fireball is good to hit out the low pokes dhalsims are pushing back people for free with these days. These are st short (at the right range), df lp, df mp, df hp. These pokes are so effective since most go under cr strong and your cr mk is too slow and risky at those ranges. But cr short buffer fireball can beat the poke clean and make sim block a fb. All sims pokes can be beaten clean except for st fierce which will give u a bad trade at best (unless your bodys hit box is out of st fierce range, try and sweep the st fierce or cr strong at the tip). St fierce doesnt have a vulnerable hitbox before active frames but every other stretchy poke does and is fair game.

From 2/3 screen dist or closer you can cr short buffer super, and on counter hit will combo. Another neat trick for the sim matchup.

You want sim to throw out st fierce cause of the recovery and focus attack vulnerability. For the record st fierce and st mp of sims are the only ‘stretchy’ pokes that are susceptible to focus attacks, every other poke ducks under the focus attack or recovers too fast for focus to hit.

527

Need help against Rose. Anybody have any info besides what’s on the first page?

528

^ yup…

VS ROSE

Whilst FBs from full screen are totally pointless and just a means of her building metre (reflect builds hella metre) you can still zone her pretty effectively from just outside sweep range. She may slide under but that requires hella reflexes from up close (next to impossible unless theyre expecting the fireball). Also try to work the space immediately outside of her slide range. I suggest going to training room and getting used to this range. Try to bait her to slide from just outside max range n sweep.

Once you score a knockdown you can rape her for free… which is fun :slight_smile: Just make sure you constantly OS FP SRK to beat anything she has (this obviously changes if she has U2). OS SRK is for use VS EX spiral, your other best OS is OS sweep to beat her backdashes on wake-up.

Rose essentially has a few vry very good moves. One is the reflect, which means youre not gonna win outside of half screen range (or a lil more) where she can easily beat FBs. The next is her slide, which goes under FBs and is safe on block at the right distance (max) and the last is her high priority and comboable C.MP… Essentially this gives you three choice areas. 1) Inside the range at which she can reaction reflect and outside her slide range. 2) Inside her slide range at a point where it is no longer safe and outside her C.MP range (this is essentially the same space as your C.MK) and finally up close. Work those spaces, score a knockdown and rape her till U2 is stocked, then be a lil more patient, wait for her to use U2, then once she has go back and repeat.

this is obviously just the basic match-up. Rose is a very very good character in Super so its not like theres 1 universal wining strategy, but by working the spaces indicated above you should be able to gain advantage. Oh, and be patient! Dont feel the need to reversal SRK much because Rose doesnt really do that much damage anyway, you can block for quite a long time before needing to escape!

529

Good shit, man! Thanks for the tips.

530

MEGA confused… k, so im working on spacing at the mo with Fireballs (project me n Theli gonna be working on) and Ive been doing Abel today. What I cant work out is why I cannot react to a FB, Roll and then jab or w/e… heres the frames

Hado = 58 frames total so thats the time Ive got to react and hit dummy Ryu
Abel Roll = 30 frames (doing mk one)
Abel jab = 5 frames
so thats 35 active Abel frames to get the hit.

58 - 35 = 23, so ive 23 frames to see the hado and input the roll
average reaction times are 15 frames ish, right? so thats 15 reaction frames + 35 active frames = 50
So I basically have 8 frames for execution. Im pretty certain I should be able to do the roll input in 8 frames… seems like plenty of time. yet I cannot hit the dummy ryu during his hado… so… yah… im confused…?!

Ive just started using stick btw?.. so im wondering… am I hella slow inputting motions on stick? How quickly would you expect to be able to do QCF + kick ?! Is 8 frames hella long? Or am I experiencing some sort of TV lag shit here…?

Im also struggling to jump the FB and hit on reaction. That should be even easier. Abels jumps are 44 frames all in all, but surely that means you can hit from air to ground at like frame 30 or something. So again, 58 frames for hado - 30 = 28 frames to react and press up forward… that is hella time… yet a lot of the time im struggling to react, jump n hit the dummy ryu whilst hes hadoken-ing…

someone please explain WTF is going on… Im fairly certain I dont have shit reflexes, my execution on stick isnt great cause ive just started a few weeks back but still… wtf?

531

8 frames is in the range of the amount time you have to react to a throw animation to tech it. That should give you your answer right there.

It is more or less doable to jump hados on reaction with some chars. But the question is, are you reacting to the hado? Or just the opponent doing some kind of motion? How much delay have you added by letting yourself tell the difference?

I play against an exceptional honda player who seemingly can jump every hado I throw assuming he is in range. Now, I’ll admit that I can get predictable. But his rate of false positive seems relatively low. (But it DOES happen.) Just like DPing every jump-in deep, it seems like a skill that is important, and can be difficult, to master.

On the flip side, my anti-air game versus honda is exceptionally poor. If I was capable of dping those attacks reliably deep (and knowing when not to if he is too far and the jump too early to connect) then those jumps would be more of a bad idea.

People say “Don’t jump against daigo” for a reason.

532

^ yah but then the whole spacing thing comes down to personal reactions, perception, input speed etc. I dont know whether when Im doing this I should just list all the possible punishes for hados or whether I should go into details on the amount of frames the opp’ has to react and input their counter etc. Being able to theoretically punish something is totally different to anticipating, reacting and inputting the counter. I mean its not like were dealing with “Ryu’s sweep is -10 on block so can punish with X”. Its more like, "Hado takes 58 frames, from THIS spacing they will have X frames to react and input etc.’… dunno… I cant think of a comprehensive way to do it…

Meh imma get this abel one done, and then itll be a case of trial and error until an ideal system is found.

IF ANYONE IS CAPABLE OF TAKING A FEW SCREENSHOTS FOR MINE AND THELI’S SPACING PROJECT PLEASE PM ME…

^ still havent found a way to get them, lol.

oh, and the other thing is Ive no idea how to work out the amount of frames it takes to jump n hit a ryu doing a hado… I mean yah there are jump frames listed on the wiki and input for the actual move etc, but none of that actually says what the earliest frame is from jumping to hitting the tip of the opponent. Which pretty much puts me at the mercy of my own reactions as well as TV lag… ?!

533

True. Different jump-in attacks are better at connecting earlier.

The easiest way to do this would be with a couple programmable controllers.

Since we don’t have access to those, the next best thing would be to record the dummy doing the hado. A hard limit for this can be set by assuming that we are all machines with perfect one frame reactions.

To do this, you have to record the hado closest to the first frame possible after they start and then just block standing for a few seconds. Now every time you go to the start menu, the dummy starts from frame one. So just hold up-forward with your character of choice at your range of choice.

To define the soft limits, what you’re going to have to do is learn to pick out some small part of ryu’s idle animation. And then record a hado immediately after this part occurs. Then when the dummy plays back, you can react to that slight animation just before the hado giving you a slightly better than average reaction time. This could give you a better idea of what the theoretical human limits for jumping hados might be and take yourself out of the equation.

Then, given player feedback, you may or may not want to reduce the “ease of punish” level across the board after that.

534

Alright heres the info Ive collected for Abel so far. i have no screenshots yet so this is raw data and kinda ugly lol. The ranges are based on the grid in ths training room. Distances are based on the squares between the two character’s front feet, with one big line of the grib marking 1.0 and each little square component thereof representing 0.1

**Example of the info for Abel so far **

General Rule :

Travel speed for Hado = 1.0 range per 13 frames, with 13 frame start-up. Therefore, the opponent must react and input their counter within the follow frames / distances as a generic rule of thumb.

Range 1.0 : 26 frames
Range 2.0 : 39 frames
Range 3.0 : 52 frames

Ways of beating Hado with Abel…

Jump : range : 2.6 Frames = 36 (APROX cause no applicable frame date available) REaction + Input frames = 22
EX wheel : Range : 2.5 Frames = 18 Reaction + input = 40 notes : 1 metre, dmg = 120
EX COD : Range : 2 Frames = 16 Reaction + input = 42 notes : 1 metre, dmg = 250
FK roll / punish Range : 3.2 Frames = 36 min’ Reaction + input = 22
MK Roll / punish Range = 1.8, Frames = 34 min’ Reaction + input = 24
U1 Range = 3.0 Frames = 14 Reaction + input = 44
U2 Range = 3.0 Frames = 8 Reaction + input = 50 notes : wow, what a BS ultra :frowning:
Furthest poke = 1.1
Absolute least time to react + input VS FB = 6 frames at 1.5 (F.MK direct counter) Therefore…
optimimum FB distance = 1.6

the thing that troubles me the most is that looking at the frames n ranges it would seem as though it should be a lot easier to react to FBs than it actually is…? dunno what you will make of that.

Oh and dont worry about how ugly it is right now btw. Once someone (PLEASE…?) steps up n gets a few shots this stuff will become a lot clearer. For now youll have to look in the training room to understand what I mean… sorry :frowning:

btw, it might be neccisary to get an idea of how quick various inputs can be entered. Entering ultra instead of up forwards could relate to quite a few frames and hence make quite a big difference to this info.

535

How about versus boxer and Sim. I didn’t see too much about them in this thread, but I could of overlooked it while I was skimming.

536

^ you need to ask more specific questions dude…

537

The problem is you dont actually see the hadouken till later in the animation. Vryu broke it down for makotos ultra 2 punishing ryu fireball on reaction:

"ryu’s hadoken = 45 frames, and 13 frames before fireball becomes “visible”.
I dont think you react on ryu’s pre-fireball animation (or are you not human?), but, as everybody, when you SEE the fireball.

that means you have 32 frames to punish him.

Abare has 19 startup, then 11 active frames (=30 frames). If ryu is full screen away, you will hit him with the last active frames. (saying 25-30).

So, that means you have 7 frames to react+do the input when he does a fireball from full screen away.

yeah, that’s EASY, as you say."

So i think its actually 45 frames not 58 too. Startup not added to recovery ‘total’ in this case i guess.

538

I don’t believe that seeing the fireball is the only way.

You CAN react to just the motion. You’ll be wrong sometimes. But it could be a reasonable educated guess now and then. Ryan Hart came up with some weird words for this… But since I don’t really know what else to call it, it’s Animation Reflex as opposed to Technique Reflex. (Or “aniflex” and “techflex” I guess.)

But it is worth thinking about what exactly you can reliably react to. Taking out the startup is relatively safe. Honestly, some people could probably pickup on the actual motion before the 13th frame and begin their input. But stripping the full 13 frames could represent an average reaction speed. No reason this guide couldn’t have values for both high and low reactions.

539

Man this shit is confusing…

K; just been looking at the hitbox videos for hadoken. Id say the first time you can really distinguish that Ryu is definately doing a FB is around frame 10, when his hands come out in front, anything before that is too vague to be distinguished with any certainty. However, average reaction times is 16 frames. Now, does that mean that the opponent has to : SEE the FB (10 frames), then react to it (average 16) and then input their move, which lets say is 5 frames, meaning by the time they are actually doing their move 30 odd frames of the FB have already elapsed? Or do the SEEING and REACTING parts somehow merge? … zomg, this is getting like psychology now lol. … meh Im off to look up details on human perception n reaction… some deep SF theory here. lol.

interesting… I just did some tests on my reaction times by hooking my stick up to my laptop and using an online reaction speed test. This is basically where a traffic light goes green and you press the button. i did this but using the inputs for various moves. The following are the amount of frames it took me to see the light change and enter the input…

jump 0.2786 = 16 frames
hado 0.398 = 23.8 frames
ultra 0.521 = 31.26 frames
FA 0.28 = 16.8 frames

now Im not amazing on stick yet but I reckon I still have about average input speed, so Imma take this as a guide to the average players reactions (btw, if other peeps want to do this itd be really helpful to get a good idea of the ranges of reaction speeds n input times :smiley: )

What is also of note is that, by looking at the above results in conjunction with tests Ive done in the training room, I can say that I personally recognise the hado at between frames 6 - 13, so thats a little before the actual FB comes out. However, this is outside of a game in a specific test… in an actual match I guess Id have to increase that time so I recognise the hado at between frames 10 - 14.

So I basically have like 10 odd frames in which I recognise the hado, then the above frames in which I actually react an input the motions.

540

Good shit.

What’s interesting is that you took over 7 frames longer to enter a hado as opposed to jump or FA. And 14-15 frames longer to do ultra (or super I guess.) I have a feeling that given tons of training, you should be able to reduce this difference by a significant amount. The realistic/reliable hard lower bound would seem to be something like 4 frames for hado and 7 for ultra/super. With maybe a soft lower bound of around 5 and 9, respectively.

For the double-qcf motion… As I habit I personally waste a lot of motion to try and guarantee a successful input. I’ve been working really hard on fixing that, but it’s tough. Especially as player 1…