Because it explains why some people might have natural talent toward a certain activity. Different body shapes, weights, and wiring will have different physical properties.
You can get an EXTREMELY long way with just knowledge and practice. I’m a textbook example. I consistently beat players more talented that I, based on knowledge and a little bit of luck.
That last 10% is god given talent.
When you have the combination of talent and knowledge, you are elite Jwong level.
Where do people get these ideas that everything is born into you? Natural rhythm? I guess black people just naturally have better rhythm in their genes since they’re better dancers and such? Must be all those years playing drums back in their native landsarcasm.
People give too much credence to genetics (and this is coming from a Bio major…). Yes they’re a big deal, but they don’t control everything about you like some of you would like to think.
Why do some people have better rhythm than other? It’s quite simple really, they spend more time around things that have a strong rhythm to it. Look at typical “white music”. Lots of focus on melody and harmony (I’m speaking historically, I don’t know what the kids are listening to nowadays). Not a real emphasis on bass or drums, they’re usually just keeping time in the background of the song. There are exceptions of course, but as a rule of thumb this is true.
Whereas historically “black music” like Blues, Jazz, Hip-Hop and such have a much heavier focus on a strong rhythm.
I’m white but I listened to lots of Blues and Jazz growing up, so gasp I have a better sense of rhythm than someone who grew up listening to pop music.
studying in the biological field in school I would know that it IS true that genetics play a large part in physical “sports” . Genetic advantage is just the way your bodys built to handle the situation you put it in: the genetic code that gives you a more superior hemoglobin structure makes you less tired after a long activity than an average person.
It is understandable how this can give a slight advantage in physical sports, this is a factor that no amount of practice can out-do. But aside from this, in any sport, all other factors are a constant. This is where i fail to see how genetics influences a game such as SF.
The only factor i see that Daigo has over the majority of players is experience. Because he spends so much time in the arcades w/ top players, he is exposed to all the variables in the game. Unlike sports where there is genetic advantage, a game such as SF is only constant with x number of choices a player can rely on in a given situation. And because of Daigo has the exposure to all these variables, he is able to set you up in a situation where he knows exactly what you can and cannot do to get out. From there he just has to choose the safest "moves"
In other words, when someone plays Daigo, Daigo has enough experience to set you up and “read you”.
And from there its all execution, and execution DOES NOT play a factor in being good. “Good players” like Daigo are just more comfortable with the timing and muscle memory due to all the experience(practice). Anyone can develop muscle memory and timing just as well with enough practice
thats why i believe genetics do not have an effect on the level of play. If Daigo really has the “genetic advantage in fighting games” then he’d be able to random any character in the roster and serve you up, but i highly doubt that’s a possibility. Hes just more familiar with the game engine and knows the ins and outs of Ryu with experience.
I mean, yeah, genetics can play a huge role in a fighting game if youre better than me because my character gets tired faster than yours just because im playing it. Or im better than you because my character can back dash, run faster, or jump higher than yours because im lucky to have a more superior genetic sequence.
If your genetic make-up affects the attributes of the character you play, then sure, why cant genetics determine if you’re good at a game?
And I was in the exact same boat. I hated math in high school and it wasn’t till my calc course in college that I became interested. I am now dual majoring in Chemistry and Math. I started college with a 2.3 GPA my freshmen year and have improved to a 3.7 in my junior year.
However that does not negate what I say. It could have been that you and I always had the talent and never bothered to explore it. When we explore electrical systems which the brain is one giant organic electrical system, there are similar parallels. Shorter wires have less resistances and as such requires less voltage to produce the same current than longer wires of the same resistance per unit length. Thus certain brain structures may be created in such a way that have advantages over others.
All talent always requires practice to expand on, but at the same time different biological advantages will always be in play. It is that little edge that allows the best of the best to stay on top.
This is my first fighting game, and I had no “talent” in the first 2 months I played the game. I decided to join the SRK Community local to me and learn as much as I could, play as much as I could vs different players/play styles.
Experience is key. Even if it’s just a 2-person gathering, ALL experience you can take with you to improve your future game will show “talent”. Fuck anyone who says they are just good at whatever game they pick up. I’m a god damn beast in any TowerDefense style game, but does that mean I have talent? Naw, it means I have the basic understanding on how the game is played based on my experience with similar games in the past.
Iverson said it best, talkin bout practice!
The story of MJ not making it onto his HS basketball team is total BS. He didn’t make varsity as a freshman in high school, and like most high school sports is was just based on size, he was too short at his age. Jordan was also an athlete his whole life pretty much, not suggesting he didn’t need to work his ass off to become the best of all time, but he sure as hell was born with some extraordinary gifts, not the least of which was his height.
I think an earlier link in the thread put it best. “Deliberate practice” like, working hard to get better in the quickest possible way. If you sit around playing Super Turbo with your friend for 10,000 hours you probably won’t get to the level of an OG. However, if you played for 1,000 hours of HD Remix on XBL against the best players there, I bet you would become really good.
To those in the Biological field, every human got the same potential in reflexes, for example ?
Actually he was a sophomore. And he was 5’11, which certainly isn’t tall but it’s doubtful that was the only contributing factor. I mean there’s much shorter basketball players than that, especially in high school.
There’s only one flaw to that argument. You could never know how much natural talent you have. As you said, you can ALWAYS have talent that you haven’t tapped into because you don’t know how to. So if hypothetically Daigo is more “naturally talented” in SF, that doesn’t mean shit. Because there’s no way to know if you’ve tapped out your own talent. So maybe in this next year something with click with JWong and he’ll realize his full potential and start crushing Daigo.
So basically it’s all hypothesis because you can never measure “maximum talent”. So why bother worrying about it? Why not just practice and play as much as you can and hope to break through to your “next talent level” instead of using talent as an excuse as to why “I can never be as good as Daigo”. Because as you said, with more practice your “natural talent” could get better.
So really I don’t see the difference between “talent” and “experience” because in your words the only way to increase talent is to get more experience…
There’s probably small differences, but it’s not really measurable because you can’t really measure something like that scientifically. There’d be no way to tell whether someone has better reflexes naturally or if it was because they’ve trained their reflexes more.
The only thing we do know is that experience DEFINITELY affects reflexes. So instead of worrying about if someone is just naturally better reflex wise, just worry about improving your own reflexes.
If you have genetic traits that lead to better execution and muscle memory, it just means you don’t need to train as hard as the next person to reach the same level. eg. Some people can pick up Fuerte’s RSF in less than an hour (having never played the game before), others require days of practice. But even though you didn’t have to train as hard to learn a technique as the next person, you’re not going to have an advantage over them if they can also do it.
On intelligence as an inherent advantage:
So basically, if you’re not as good as you’d like to be, then you need to work harder, change your routine, or both.
In every single online argument about genetics vs. training, somebody will mention the fact that the top sprinters are black, the top swimmers are white, and IQ scores for each race will be thrown in as examples. This happens without fail, so I figured I’d get it out of the way.
I don’t think genetics help you learn different moves faster. It most likely has to do with the fact that you’ve done SIMILAR things in other games. Why do some people think that everyone started at Level 1 in SF4? Of course people that played SF2, SF3, MvC2, CvS2 and such games started out much better than someone who has never played a fighting game before. As such, these people “learned faster” not from talent but from experience.
The answer is…
yes.
I feel being good at fighting games is a combination of several traits, some of them being bolstered by a natural talent, some fleshed out with practice and dedication.
I feel that getting ‘good’ at SF (and other games) is akin to learning an instrument. Put in the hours and you will develop a close familiarity with the game/instrument to the point where playing at a base level becomes close to an automatic process and therefore you are able to better explore various options and experiment with what your in-depth understanding dictates may be feasible. Consider creative chord changes or progressions, or in the case of SFIV, creative counters, combos or mind games.
There is also a physical dexterity that for many can come naturally which for others they have to work at. I’m personally quite calculated and try to be precise with my inputs whereas I’ve played and witnessed people who quite literally wrangle the ever loving shit out of the stick and the table the controllers are resting on in order to perform basic specials. I don’t think I have any innate ability in this sense, moreso an understanding of what is required to perform moves, etc and a good amount of time under my belt practising. With practice you can get your execution nailed (again, like perhaps learning to fluidly play a new guitar scale after practice) and as a result become more proficient and less likely to make errors. Your timing improves and your overall accuracy and efficiency in the game improves and as a result your control of your character is tight and harnessed. Consider Momochi’s control of Gouki - he is extremely precise and tight with his movements and execution. Consider Daigo’s handling of Ryu in very tense moments - if a high damage but difficult combo opening presents itself he rarely fluffs it.
I feel that the physical dexterity thing can be impacted by an innate or natural gift though. Some people just plain exhibit excellent coordination and precise movements. This is also bolstered by solid hand-eye coordination. Yes, we can all practice these aspects, but those with a natural affinity can whip out stuff that requires many of us the need to practice extremely hard to pull off.
The same applies for reactions. If you can hold your own in most games, it implies your reactions are somewhat decent in my opinion. Obviously some faster than others. Combined with good hand-eye coordination, a solid reaction speed benefits players hugely. If our reaction times are perhaps not as fast we can adopt a style with a focus on determining what events in the game are unfolding or about to unfold and instead perhaps use a form of prediction/mind reading to play. This then changes the style from a reactive/snappy form of play to a more calculated/planned approach. Obviously, the two styles can be combined though.
When the two are combined and you also exhibit good reactions, that’s when you put together the recipe for a lot of seemingly psychic play which again can be practised but if the abilities are also innate within the player the level is elevated a lot more. These seem the be the factors exhibited by a lot of the top players from what I can tell.
Lastly, I think capable players demonstrate good intelligence, particularly analytical skills and fast thinking. The guys I play regularly are no fools and when you’re engaged in a good match you really get a sense for the brain controlling your opponent. By no means am I suggesting that if you’re no Hawking you’re going to suck, I’m saying that top players aren’t exactly slack-jawed, mouth-breathing yokels. SF requires the brain to think about and consider many dimensions - timing, prediction, execution, situation analysis, feigns, traps, patterns, etc. Then you need to flip this over and consider the fact that a good player is ALSO considering these situations and aspects in relation to their OPPONENT’S character - effectively in many ways playing TWO games. That’s a lot of consider. Yes, its a lot like Chess. In Chess you play two games. SF is no different.
A lot of this may well be drivel as I’ve typed it out whilst having my morning coffee, but I hope my point of view comes across. SF invokes many skills which are an interesting combination of physical and mental and I’m sure we all agree that after a particularly intense match where you feel you’re really on point and playing really well against a well matched opponent, it can really be quite taxing on the brain. When you nab that victory you’ll find that you’ve exhausted a bunch of mental and physical faculties and at the end it really is a cool feeling. Your brain truly has a work out. All your choices worked out and you played well. You read your opponent accurately and all the pieces fell into place.
But then consider the extra dimension of practised and natural ability in a subsequent opponent who utterly destroys you while you’re riding that wave of accomplishment.
Whatever “it” is, I suspect that is what the difference might be in this case. If an opponent is better, that will factor in many aspects which will be a mix of well practised and rehearsed skills and naturally gifted abilities by way of hand-eye coordination, analytical skills, fast thinking, specific intelligence and so on.
lol, “wiring.” So it’s “simple physics” that some people are inherently better at Street Fighter than others but you can’t actually put it in concrete terms?
Ok put it this way.
In all of my college career I have never taken notes in class. Not once. To me I pay attention less in class by taking notes. I don’t even read the books intensely. Yet I still learn and understand how it works by piecing together the fragments in my head. How is it that I can do this and still get A’s while others would fail trying this? My learning methods are completely unorthodox yet I can do it and at the same time I can’t learn in the same way as other people. To me it seems like my brain accels at auditory and visual learning while it is slower at actual reading while I know many people learn more from reading a book than I ever could. It is not a lack of attempt on my part, I tried for so long and it never worked for me.
What training does is to tell your body to strengthen the most used areas of the body. If you train yourself toward physical work then your body adjusts by increasing muscle mass and blood flow. If it is mental your body adjusts by increasing blood flow to the ares of the brain and also creates a sheath around your nerve that go to that part of the body to increase conductivity. However once your body has adjusted as much as physically possible then the underlying structure takes over. Because once optimized there is a point where the brain can no longer advance.
You can optimize a standard car engine only so much. You can tweak it to be more fuel efficient and maybe get some extra horsepower out of it, but it will never be able to produce the strength of a truck engine nor will it ever be able to produce the speed of a race car engine. Because he underlying structure remains the same. Likewise a truck engine will never be able to produce the same results on a small sudan as a normal engine would nor would it be able work in a race car.
Hey Sol - I like your signature. I was musing through ‘The Art of War’ in a bookstore yesterday and am considering picking a copy up once I’ve finished up my current books. I read quite a few lines specific to feigns, deception and cunning which I found pretty amusing and in a way devilshly twisted.
The funny thing is that while flicking through the various quotes and clever quips I couldn’t help but think of SF. Its oddly applicable in many ways.
Anyways. Back on the rails.
I read the book (As much as I hate reading books) through the first time when studying chess strategy. It is amazing how well it translates from war to chess to sports to street fighter and other video games. In any competition the same basic principles apply, but how they are applied is specific to the arena.
The art of war is the only book I completely read on my own free will because it interested me.