I edited my post after I decided I had more time on my hands (and more to say).
@murderbydeath: at what point do we say that execution is a challenge and at what point do we say that execution is a barrier?
again i’m going to say that “people don’t like change, what else is new”. ever hear those stories about how your grandparents had to walk 20 miles uphill in snowstorms just to get to school everyday? today we get bus rides, so we have it easier? last time i checked, we don’t go to school to become great at walking, we go to school to get a good education. less time to travel = more time to study (or for the srk’er more time to play fighting games).
someone earlier stated that sf4 does still require a decent amount of execution. the gap is still there between the extreme top players, your typical competitive player, and your casual player. if sf4 is so easy, then why aren’t all you srk’ers winning evo?
I don’t care about appealing to casual players except where it has a negative effect on gameplay, like making reversals easier and doing away with blockstun clearly does. Like you said the top players are still top players. The problem is that the game is homogenous, boring and stupid, due at least in part to decisions which I can only assume were made with the intent of appeasing casual players (even though I’d argue they do nothing of the sort). As far as almost everything in the game being nerfed from older SFs though, that more represents the SF4 team’s lack of familiarity and understanding of classic SF than any conscious design decision I think.
One, you’re making sweeping generalizations about things. SRK’ers ARE winning Evo. And I never said SF4 required no execution or no skill. I said that’s the trend things are going in.
Two, your examples comparing real life to fighting games are funny, but ridiculous. Video games =/= real life. Execution is a real part of video games, and I feel should continue to be in the future. I don’t think shit should be dumbed down to a point where you can’t even do the things you WANT to do anymore without having to do something ridiculous to get what you wanted to come out properly (though this does add a layer of difficulty to execution I guess, you know, when you’re trying to walk forward -> fireball in HDR or SF4 and you get a walk forward shoryu instead because the game is so damn lenient on SRK inputs). Yes, one frame links are hard, and yes there is a gap between players. Again, I never said there wasn’t. Just that that’s the direction it’s headed in and that I disagree with this trend.
@sirlin snake shirt: i wasn’t commenting on whether or not sf4 was a good or bad game. if you want my comment on that, i can’t really give it because i’m not an sf4 player. i used to be an sf2 player back in the day, until some of the “new school” fighters came out which i likened to moreso than sf2. not necessarily because they are better games, but rather because they cater to my playstyle and what i look for in fighting games. i still appreciate the greatness that is sf2, but alas it is not the game for me. which brings me to my point, everyone has a different vision of what their ideal fighting game would be. many of the sf2 players who’ve stuck with sf2 have already found that game in sf2, so why are you trying to look for that in a completely different game like sf4? if anything, you should be bashing hdr, not sf4. it just sounds to me like you wanted super duper street fighter 4 hyper maxed out turbo tournament triple x edition rather than sf4.
@murderbydeath: video games aren’t real life? i didn’t mean it in that way. training and competing in video games (in real life) is not much different than training and competing in sports or race car driving, etc (in real life). again, you misunderstood my ‘srker’s winning evo’ comment as well–i meant the average srk poster, not the handful of top competitors who happen to post on srk. lastly, i did not disagree that a lot of games are heading down this direction, i was just merely questioning (and partly disagreeing) whether or not its the wrong direction.
This is why you are not smart. The entire point of everything just missed you completely.
^the point of the op? i already said my piece about the op. that response was directed at the latest post. which is what discussions are supposed to do: progress. there was sf4 bashing, and i commented on it.
O.Seth was definitely beast.
O.Seth if you are reading this from deep within N.Seth, I don’t know if your code is back-forward or up-down but figure it out please.
I hate new elements and genre experimentation. Gaming needs to be built on MORE dogmatic design principles.
Because it’s not a fundamentally different game. Like every SF game post-SF2, it’s built on the same basic ideas, but worse. Seriously, does SF4 do anything better than than SF2 did? Does it add anything new that could seriously be said to enhance gameplay?
When we experiment we should be trying to address existing problems, not create new ones and then create solutions to the problems our experimentation has created (as Capcom were forced to do, for example, by introducing guard meter after nerfing throws).
Wow…looking at that ST vs. SF4 frame data really hits home to how stupid SF4 truly is.
Guile crouching MK -1 on hit?
4 fucking active frames for crouching Fierce?
Did Dimps just pull random numbers out of a hat?
By supers, I meant meter-based supers. How many games use desperation moves nowadays? Not to even speak of all the aspects of Ryuko no Ken that were never adopted by later fighters like having meter that gets used up in chunks after performing specials.
Also, I think you missed the point of my response; read Josh’s complete post again. SNK doesn’t have a single game where every aspect is still a genre staple to this day.
So let’s say Capcom does fix all the problems in your nearly perfect game and release that fixed one. Would you want them to make a game after that or not since your “perfect game” has already here?
Ignoring the fact that perfection is never attainable and even a perfected system could always have more new types of characters added into it, they should explore alternative approaches to fighting games outside of the fundamental style established by SF2, as they did with Vampire Savior and MvC2, as SNK did with KoF and Arc did with Guilty Gear.
It will be a sad, sad day when the Ono + Dimps Vampire Savior sequel is released.
No chain combos.
No unique movement.
DP FADC into Fireball super.
Demitri only.
Final Destination.
Shortcut GC motion
Pushblock is MP+MK
Two-button throws
6f reversal window
I don’t know. I’ve been applying Seth’s quotes to the games you mentioned among others and now they sound like total shit to me. “System gimmicks” galore.
I would be interested to hear if/how his opinions have changed over the years on the idea of having designated fake moves in SF.
http://shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=145083&p=4917800&viewfull=1#post4917800
Hurr yes that’s very cute and all but a) he’s talking about SF and b) just because something is a new approach doesn’t mean it can’t too have unnecessary gimmicks. Now do you want to discuss things seriously with the big boys or continue to make dumbass facetious comments from the peanut gallery?
You’re not even trying anymore, are you?
Lol his post got deleted.
I think my real problem with his post is the fact that he mentions Naruto, MK, and Smash, then says “fuck depth” as if depth isn’t an important part of these game’s quality.
He ends up insulting his own preferred games.