All special moves can “auto-correct”. Just do the motion before the cross-up, and press the button afterwards. In the case of Guile’s flash kick, the timing is stricter because you are limited to pressing the button within the pre-jump frame window, which for all characters is much shorter than the window allowed for pressing after the final motion was entered. Note that this window can usually be extended (to it’s full potential) if you’re in block/hitstun, so “auto-correction” of Guile’s flash kick is common when blocking against things like Akuma’s air fireball, or Ibuki’s kunai when they hit on the front side before they cross you up.
I know this happens in Street Fighter 2. If you’re say, Guile, and you block a psycho crusher that passes through you, sometimes when you go for a throw, you get a sonic boom instead.
Auto correcting is fine in SF4 imo, crossups are really really powerful in that game anyway.
Crossups are powerful in SFIV? I though they were kinda pointless since they push the characters away unlike in pretty much every other 2D fighting game ever. And auto tracking AAs being the insult to the injury. But since I don’t really follow high level SFIV I may have been wrong all this time, I dunno.
This subject was broached as an aside earlier in the thread and I think it’s worth exploring a bit more: Character “variety” (“I get to do this and no one else does!”) without subsystems tends to work paradoxically in favor of making the game revolve around matchups or a select few characters (not even a bad thing in games with an interesting ‘select few’). Catering to casual players has nothing to do with subsystems, so don’t get them confused.
No one has made a good case in favor of a theoretical SF game where there are no “gimmicks” – how do these affect the game in a necessarily negative way? I’m honestly confused. The idea that the other games in SF are defective somehow and not another variation doesn’t really make sense to me. I really don’t get SF, though, so that could be it (not sarcasm).
VF5, my main game, doesn’t have a problem with balance or diversity (Neither does Guilty Gear either, though I’m not really going to qualify that since I haven’t played it in years.) – characters cater to different styles of play, sometimes multiple styles. The system is robust, but in most cases the systems’ rules are “bent” for certain characters - see the different sets of rising attacks for each character, shun and lion’s special movements, sabakis, etc. Keep digging on this subject and tell me I’m not right.
And no, tearing about how hard VF is then turning around and bitching about SF4’s “scrub-friendliness” is not an interesting or reasonable opinion. Ok, that’s a bit extreme, but really, good games have already been made that answer a lot of the common complaints about SF4 (valid or not – don’t know don’t care), but they don’t get played in the US. I wonder why.
I’m 29 years old, and as a kid living in Los Angeles in the early to mid 90’s, the SF community had a lot of the same issues back then. When I used to read EGM, Game Players, and Game Pro, lots of players were upset with the fact that Capcom came out with yet ANOTHER installment of SFII (with still no sign of SFIII), and accused Capcom of rehashing the same game without a true sequel. Everyone said Super Turbo was trash and moved toward games like MK and Killer Instinct (a popular game at the time) because they both incorporated these “cool” multi-hit combos, finishing moves, superior graphics, etc. Then when SFIII came out, lots of players were mad about super arts, parrying, no original characters besides the shotos, and the different look compared to SFII versions. When the VS series arrived you can imagine the beefs that old school purists had with all the new bells and whistles (even though MVC2 is IMO the longest running SF game in terms of popularity). And lo and behold, here we are, coming up on 20 yrs of SF with SSF4, and still, everyone is complaing. IMO, a lot of people in the SF community will NEVER be happy. So it’s funny to me how after all this time, the things SF gamers USED to ask for they now despise. Playing SF has always been one of my hobbies, but I have never complained about it. You know why??? Because if you practice, and learn your shit (I don’t care what version of SF it is) you will beat the scrub. Are scrubs getting more of an advantage than older SF versions? Yeah, definitely. However, scrubbynesss was just as easy back in the day when EVERY liquor store and 7-11 had a coin-op version of SFII, and EVERY fucking kid was playing it. Remember, a throw did a hell of a lot more damage then than it does now, and there were lots of ways to be cheap. But we all learned how to counter the scrubby cheap turtle guy that does lame fireball traps and constant throws by learning things like cross ups, sure-dizzying combos, counters, etc. My point is that scrubbiness will always be with us, even more so with more novices learning to play. I mean, the fact that you don’t have to ACTUALLY STAND NEXT TO THE PERSON you’re playing (unless you’re playing at one of the few arcades left standing) is a HUGE difference. A lot of these nerds online wouldn’t say or do HALF the shit if they were playing you in person. Back in the day, if you cheaped a player, they would call you out. If you did it again, you’d get a beat down after the game was over. Now we have dudes who turtle then taunt, rage-quitters, and all the rest of the lazy losers who will never be anything above trash. So I say bring on the scrubs and simplicity! Every SF version has it’s glitches or simplicity, but it’s how you learn to get around them that makes you a world warrior. Btw, SF4 still has a great amount of depth. Is super SFII still my favorite version? Yup! Will I play that over SF4? No, because I spent the majority of my youth playing it, so why would I go back? I say roll with the punches, because no matter how much you complain about SF4, you’re still spending fucking hours of your short precious life playing it. So I guess the joke is on you. haha
P.S. If I would have had a site like this, and all of the SF resources available back when I was younger, I would have turned out to be a complete fucking nerd who just played SF all day and never got laid or socialized. This current generation is doomed. 
Yes, Crossups are powerful. They’re the best way to be aggressive on wakeup with the least risk of eating a reversal DP. Auto-correct doesn’t happen all the time, and if your cross up is ambiguous and timed correctly, auto-correction wont happen - and reversal DP will whiff or get stuffed from behind. This is one of the reasons why akuma is so strong. He has many ways to approach you in the air that is ambiguous and will make DPs whiff/get stuffed for a free 300 damage combo.
they aren’t as strong as cross ups in other games, true. But cross ups are done all the time. It’s not about the positional advantage at this point either, or pushing them out if they block right. It’s meant as a low-risk, high-reward gamble.
sloppy ass, obvious cross-ups are easy to auto-correct btw.
Well, time passes and you change your mind I think.
hahaha
quit stalkn my posts you retard. Learn to play first.
bump since with sfxt all this stuff seems relevant again (as if it was ever not)
This should really put some of the recent PR babble into perspective. Especially that Ono SFxT interview.
Sirlin Snake Shirt was a good poster I wonder where he went.
Edit: Reading the whole thread again, it’s pretty scary how almost every argument on this forum to this day results from people not reading or understanding someone else’s post.
wasn’t he yet another alt user of veteran troll polarity?
It was a joke.
Ironically that type of thinking is what killed fighting games tbh and they is coming from a guy that thinks ST>>>>sf4
I think what has killed fighting games were companies releasing so much trash to the point the masses could not anymore tell the good ones from the bad ones. They have posted some thread about favorite fighting games at a local forum, and pretty much every post had a different game. One can not play in a decent level without some focus: too many games means either too few players for most of them or scrubby play all around.
Haven’t read the entire thread, just the first page. But because it’s already showing a modernist bias, I feel the need to chime in and make some observations, as a guy who’s getting really old. Hopefully I don’t sound too condescending to anyone.
This is a very important idea. In the 90s there were many different games and franchises to choose from, and so if you liked HF you could talk about how much better than ST it was, or how superior ST was to Alpha 1. Arcades (the main house of competition for fighting games) were booming, and Capcom was a big part of that. But by the time SF4 rolled around, it was of paramount importance to get new/casual players to take a look at SF. See also:
Just to illustrate this point, let’s use a 5-year time frame:
1995-2000
SF Alpha
X-Men: Children of the Atom
Street Fighter EX & EX+
Marvel Super Heroes
Street Fighter Alpha 2
Night Warriors (Vampire Hunter)
X-Men vs Street Fighter
SF3: New Generation
Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter
Rival Schools
Vampire Savior (Darkstalkers 3)
Marvel vs Capcom
SF3: 2nd Impact
Street Fighter Alpha 3
Street Fighter EX 2 & EX 2+
SF3: 3rd Strike
Marvel vs Capcom 2
Project Justice (Rival Schools 2)
Capcom vs SNK
Please keep in mind that the above list is certainly incomplete.
By comparison, let’s look at the end of the 2000s, pre-SF4:
2002 - 2007
SvC: Chaos (an SNK game)
Hyper SF2:AE
Capcom Fighting Evolution
+(many ports of older games onto current consoles or handheld systems)
…that’s about it. And some of those were disappointments (bad ports, SvC was disappointing to SNK fanboys who were sure that their game would be better than Capcom’s, CFE is never spoken of, etc).
So in the period that Capcom’s console games were flourishing (DMC, Resident Evil etc), their fighting games dried up. So it was easy of fans of some SF/Capcom fans to bash other SF/Capcom games, just like it’s easy to complain about McDonalds when there’s a dozen other places to eat right next to it. But during the end of the 2000s people were starving, and SF was basically dead. That’s actually one of the reasons SF4 was embraced by the community the way it was; had it come out in 1995 instead, it would have only been a better version of Street Fighter EX to some people. But I guess that’s a whole different thing…
You are absolutely incorrect, if we’re taking the historical context of Seth and other alt.games.sf2 posters into account.
SF2 was really the only SF that existed. SF1 was a marginal success as I understand it, and was certainly not the reason that anyone who liked SF2 decided to play it. SF2 was a phenomenon, and there were no other SF games to compare it to- some arcades didn’t even have other fighting games to compare it to for months or years afterwards. It was the exemplar of a genre.
So while we can look back now and say “SF2 is like this, and the SF Alphas are like this, and the SF3 games are…” and so forth, that wasn’t something that could be taken into account at the time. There was SF2, and then there were “other” fighting games- usually SNK games or Mortal Kombat, neither of which were Street Fighter. And even later SF games were modifications or perversions of the SF2 games, as far as many people were concerned.
While I agree that most SF game start with the OG games or ST as a base, they do all experiment with new features. And while in hindsight someone can say Alpha 1 sucked (actually if you read agsf2, people were saying it at the time), SF2 and its revisions were omnipresent in arcades, and so new features were needed to distinguish one game from another. The Alphas came after several years of the same SF2 base (graphics, music, characters) and 5 different SF2 arcade games. All of the new features people have been mentioning (Alpha Counters, Custom Combos etc) seemed like really innovative changes, and were selling points of the game to some players, I’m certain.
There’s also a deliberate plea for nostalgia, in the case of SF4- it shares so much in common with ST (and has the original SF2 cast) because they were trying to reach out to players who remembered SF2 if nothing else. They probably figured bunch of new systems would have confused the target audience, so the Focus attacks and the Ultras were more than enough, along with the EX moves lifted from SF3:2I.
To answer your question btw- air blocking was adopted in basically every Capcom game other than SF3/SF4 series, and that started in Alpha. Many games have some sort of Alpha Counter system (almost all of the Marvel games for another Capcom example, and I wanna say all 3 of the Vampire/Darkstalkers games), and allow for multiple supers, allow stocking of multiple levels of super meter, etc. And while the chains from Alpha 1 were dropped in A2, they were picked up by the Marvel games, Vampire games etc, not to mention non-Capcom games. Also, ground recovery began for SF with the Alphas, and either rolling after a knockdown or the ability to do a quick/delayed stand has been in many other Capcom games, including SF3/SF4. A1 was also the first SF game with taunts, etc.
3S left a foul taste in Capcom’s mouth because the SF3 games bombed. 3S is the third of the SF3 games, and after New Generation being an expensive and disappointing failure and 2nd Impact being better but not a hit, 3rd Strike was a failure by being anything but a massive hit.
Also, 3S didn’t have a console port until a year after the arcade version came out because until the Dreamcast came about, there were no consoles capable of running the game. So when you say that they should have advertised it, you mean they should have advertised what, exactly? Even by the time there was a port, by the early-mid 2000s the game looked relatively old, and you’d have a better shot spending money to promote a game that looked like Tekken Tag, or certainly Soul Calibur. People didn’t care anymore, and fighting games in general had become a smaller niche in the market.
Also, people seem to forget that 3rd Strike wasn’t popular. It’s not like there’s been a strong scene for 13 years; the game had a small hardcore following and was kept alive in the tournament scene by regional mini-communities, but the game didn’t really gather any steam until shortly before the Daigo parry incident, some 5 years after its release. It was, on the whole, much smaller before that.
Actually I don’t think anyone has forgotten that 3S may not have had the best time when it was released. It simply isn’t relevant now outside of historical discussions and hence may escape mention. I’m not really getting your overall gist TS, is it possible you could clarify exactly what you are getting at?
Ugh, didn’t realize this thread was super-old…
I suppose my greater point was that the historical context is actually very important in cases like these, because we’re discussing decisions that people made, or how players felt about a game. It’s important to acknowledge the reality that those people found themselves in at the time and try to see things from their perspectives.
It’s one thing to say you don’t like Alpha Counters and other features, or that some of the older games are much better than the newer games- but if you’re going to accuse Capcom of throwing in random gimmicks for no discernible reason, it might be productive to take a closer look. And while there are many things I’d change about SF4 if I wanted to suit it to my tastes/improve balance/whatever, to say that every game should be like ST is impractical for what I think would be fairly obvious reasons.
And you’d be surprised how many people don’t really know the history of SF3, or conflate SF3 with 3rd Strike.
I would disagree then, and ask you to re-read with the point of view that perhaps the argument takes place with this in mind. The closer look has been taken, and on fairly objective analysis Capcom really does add a lot of things without thought for the impact it has on the game. This look into the past and the current releases from them brings it into sharp focus.
Many of the features that were not blatantly stupid were adopted by other games.
I don’t know who did them 1st but Alpha counters and A3’s Blue guard were adopted by Arcsys and became staple mechanics in their games. (And in other anime games like Melty Blood and Arcana Heart)
Even questionable mechanics like parry and vism were adopted, but of course changed drastically beforehand. Other than SNK’s MOTW, no one wanted to make a whiffless, costless, meter gaining parry like 3S after seeing what it did to the game.
But did anyone adopt rules like fireballs weakening over travel distance(A3)? Nope…
Others looked at Capcom and learned from their mistakes, but Capcom itself seems to ignore the lessons of it’s own past.
I don’t think anyone is gonna adopt features introduced in SF4/MVC3/SFxT anytime soon.