Its not a big one at all. But people Like YOU keep bringing it up. and its irritating. Maybe you just keep bringing it up to see how many people respond to you so you can keep the discussion going in circles…
oh god…
Er. Yes? Its a thread about it? I don’t recall randomly hijacking the SF4 tier thread about this? As much I can agree that anyone having a piece of the internet leads to a lot of needlessly conflicting opinions, if you hold issue you always have the choice to stay away instead of moping about how unagreeing with you other people are.
Also whats the deal with stock art replacing words. THAT bugs me.
Is it bad that I don’t even find the game that sexual?
When I first saw Skullgirls, I saw Cerebella, and when I saw her, I thought “THIS IS THE BOMBEST ASS SHIT EVER, YOU SEE HER FUCKING HAT, YOU HEAR THE WAY SHE SPEAKS, THE WAY SHE CARRIES HERSELF, THAT’S A SHOWY CLASSY BITCH OH MY”
I have never once thought “Oh nice breasts” never.
Even back in DOA days, I was playing Kasumi online, and a friend walked up and said “Oh, she’s got nice tities”, I didn’t even notice them until he said anything.
I believe subjects should be openly discussed and brought to light.
But, if they are, and no one cares, leave it the fuck alone, because, guess what, no one cares.
Maybe the problem here is that some of us haven’t interacted enough with real women.
And I’m not saying 'OH SHIT YOU NEVER HAD A GIRLFRIEND YOU VIRGIN HOMO", I’m saying, have you ever discussed what WOMEN (not a girl, a fucking women, a self aware female) thinkabout with WOMEN.
Right now, it’s just a bunch of guys discussing it, with no input from women.
It’s as Token on South Park stated “You just don’t get it.”
That is an image fostered by the developers themselves what with the DOA3 “she kicks high” commercial with those nerds on the couch, the bobbing head Japanese people Sixaxis Ninja Gaiden 2 Sigma commercial and of course who could forget the DOA Beach volleyball games.
You say engineered deliberately for nerd fappage but just based on what I’ve read and what I’ve researched on the artist, this strikes me more as an art-style Ahad and his colleagues/friends like to draw rather than solely a grab at nerd cash. I’m sure someone, somewhere will be getting their kicks off and Rule 34 is an immutable rule of the internet but drawing sexy characters is a pastime, if not primary career, many major artists across the world persue. Adam Hughes, Chris Sanders and Bruce Timm are all prominent, talented artists known for their sexy women. I’d find it hard to buy any argument that states that they are lonley virgins or are only trying to get at lonely nerd cash.
I agree though that those sorts of “counterarguments” you pointed out are terrible. They are bad and people should feel bad making them.
I don’t think anyone can, or is trying to deny, that this game is sexualized. What they are arguing, some admittedly poorly, is that the game isn’t sexist. Big difference!
Someone can exhibit racist behavior without being a racist. It’s true. An example would be a woman who feels a little scared when sees an unknown black man walk down a dark street near her or enters an elevator with her. There’s no reason to assume the man will do anything to her just based on his race but we see this reaction time and time again. Yet this same women can still be a social liberal, could have volunteered for Obama’s campaign four years ago, regularly holds talks against racism on a school campus, etc. If she were a racist, it would be a defining aspect of her personality and she would exhibit such a behavior towards blacks most if not all the time rather than once in a blue moon. That’s the point I’m trying to make. Even if you argue that the pshots are sexist, that doesn’t make the ENTIRE game sexist which is definitely what some naysayers ARE trying to say.
CONTEXT my friend, CONTEXT. You and I don’t disagree as much as you think we do. I don’t have a problem if I see a flash because a girl in a short skirt is busy inserting her foot into an adversary’s face. I do have a problem when she randomly trips over nothing and falls over with her legs spread open for no reason. I’ve got not problem if I see a flash because a girl is jumping from building to building or something similar, that’s acrobatics for you. I do have a problem when a scene opens on a women’s ass and sits there for like 3 minutes for no god damn reason. I’ve never seen Strike Witches but as far as I can tell, they are in their underwear for no actual reason I can perceive. That certainly strikes me as stupid. Every pshot in this game is a result from someone flying across the screen because they just got the shit punched out of them or because they are inserting a foot into someone else’s face. CONTEXT!
Pretty much. However, there is a dumbfuck way to do it and and organic, tounge-in-cheek way to do it. As far as I can tell, he chose the later.
yeah, you’re right here.
anyway, yeah, there’s “context” to the pantyshots, and that’s nice in artistic sense. but it’s not like they’re literally in the game because of realism. nobody thought “wow, this game could really stand to have some nice realistically-occurring pantyshots” when they were making the game; it was almost definitely “ok I’m going to draw panties. But I’ll make them ‘organic’ for the most part, so we’re in luck!” it’s legitimately nice that they didn’t pull a DOA with overt sexualization that literally happens without reason (in DOA’s case, terrifying breast physics), but the motivation is still “demeaning” or “sexist” or “rude” or whatever word suits your fancy.
it’s weird typing so many words about panties, but anyway.
insert rant about how whining about sexualization of women and/or any degree of attractive female features is an extension of society’s need to remind women to feel bad/ashamed/flawed about their appearance
Too fat, too skinny, too tall, too short, too pretty, put that shit away, you’re embarrassing yourself, etc.
I understand what you’re saying here, but there’s a difference between male gaze (this term slightly annoys me for some reason but whatever) and “women dressing/appearing how they want to.” in this case, it’s the former. unless alex ahad is way more badass than I gave him credit for, and intentionally did all of this sexualization stuff in order to make a statement about “society’s need to remind women to feel ashamed of their appearance.” which, to reiterate, would be super badass, but is unfortunately rather unlikely.
No.
Saying that it’s demeaning to womankind to have a man see a girl’s panties is in and of itself demeaning and sexist. It’s slut-shaming and implying that woman should be ashamed of their bodies. There is nothing wrong with the female body so stop trying to protect women from themselves.
Think about this for a second, throughout recorded history, the most sexist regimes have been those that tended to want to cover their women up.
Now for the game itself. Yes, Alex Ahad’s art style is sexualized, but is there anything in the game that says that women should cover up, quit fighting and go back into the kitchen serve their men because, as second class citizens, that’s their only role in life? I believe you’ll find that the answer, is no.
I’m aware of “slut-shaming.” There’s a distinction here.
Scenario 1: serena williams wears weird sexy outfit to a tennis match. people call her a slut or say that she’s degrading herself or whatever (I don’t know if this is how people actually responded, but whatever).
Scenario 2: someone makes a serena williams biographical movie or something, and the camera zooms in on her tits and ass for no reason sometimes. people get angry at whoever directed the film for objectifying her in this way.
the first scenario is slut-shaming and is terrible. the second scenario is warranted backlash against an instance of male gaze. I think it’s pretty clear that they’re very different scenarios, and that the complaints levied against Skullgirls fall more under the second category.
Also, I never said that “it’s demeaning to womankind to have a man see a girl’s panties.” I’m actually really confused about that.
I personally think the game has a lot more macho/masculine undertones and references than anything really. The characters are girls but otherwise the game mainly references very masculine stuff and generally stuff any guy who grew up watching cartoons in the early 90’s/late 80’s could relate to.
i think it’s a cool game and i’m gonna buy it when it comes out
I’m not a sexologist (despite what you may have heard 8-)) so I can’t really add much to the discussion other than what I’ve already said.
Relevant
Spoiler
[media=youtube]tbud8rLejLM[/media]
I say it’s a woman because it has no penis and the hole can kinda count as a vagina if you’re drunk.
Actually, I bet Vice Versa is an asexually reproducing amoeba.
I thought both were sentient. They do seem to show a lot of emotion for simple weapons, and I recall some comment about Krieg being sad or something (which was the obvious reason for “Cry Krieg!”).
This is a dangerous line of thinking, right here. Kids, don’t try this at home.
The characters aren’t real but it’s simply a fictional depiction of the first scenario. It’s not as if because a character is fictional they have to be covered from head to toe. If there is nothing wrong with a real woman dressing however revealingly they want why is it unreasonable to have fictional characters that would dress in this way? The few panty shots in Skullgirls are not emphasized at all like a camera zoom is.They come naturally with the outfits that the characters presumably would choose to wear. Having panties revealed is not even revealing a part of the body like cleavage or something(which there is still nothing wrong with.) I’m reminded of woman in Elizabethan England being shamed for showing their stockings. I’m shocked at how big a deal people are making this out to be, and angry that nobody sees how much PR damage these bullshit claims of sexism can do to amazing company like Reverge that has nothing but the community in mind. People who continue to argue that Skullgirls is sexist are trolling whether they know it or not.
You said the panty shots were demeaning via “male gaze.” I don’t know what else that could mean.
The typical response at this point is that there is something wrong with a woman dressing in excessively revealing clothing. Of course, they dress it up with fancier words and more outrage to hide the truth of how specious an argument it actually is.
The typical response at this point is to ask for what reason, other than male gaze, anyone would create a character that “chooses” to wear such clothes. Again, it’s a tremendously petty argument, and I hate to think of the artistic limitations that the people who make such arguments, given the chance, would impose.
Well there is a general level of what is considered decenct in society isn’t there? Taking a page from any halloween costume store/college party and you might muse, hmm - I wonder what they were going for with this? The question isn’t whether there’s something wrong with it - its whether its present. And I would say yes, Skullgirls now seems like a game with very japanesey sensibilities. It has a definite appeal to its characters that isn’t mitigated by any male characters and frankly is present in every character except Peacock. Is that wrong? No. Obviously not. I haven’t kept up with the whole debate[there’s a debate? I’ve seen one article] but this thread isn’t exactly going a mile a minute. But I really don’t think you can present the game as being on the wholesome side of things either. That story trailer has more PG-13 stuff than most japanese FGs honestly…
As for the costuming argument…are you suggesting that I could make a game filled with porn stars and say ITS NOT SEXUAL. ITS totally their choice. BTW whoever thinks going past skirts and thigh highs in terms of design philosophy is a stagnating influence…
Incidently, since its a 2d fighter, any and all panty shots had to be drawn in. I always think of BB and Noel and how she doesn’t have any and think how classy that was. But then it has Makoto too so :3. Just wanted to throw it in there - it might not seem like much but they are intentional, just like the amazingly tight sweater and ‘how do I button this again?’ nurse outfits.
Fuck you guys! Why the hell no one said to me that I spelled “sexualization” wrong?!
Goddayum grumble grumble
'Kay, gonna try to summarize my thoughts on this. I hope I don’t sound too bad. It’s a damn shame that this is considered an issue, coz I look at it and I really and honestly see no problems with it. The characters were all designed by one guy. They appeal to his sensibilites first and foremost. They aren’t made to appeal to the slobbering masses. Alex depicts his characters in a positive light. They aren’t degraded or made a mockery of in any way that I can see.
The cheesecake in this game is nothing short of cheeky. There’s nothing about it that says “this is demeaning to women” at all. I look at it and I don’t feel like I’m being told that I’m less of a woman because I don’t have a bust like Valentine, or legs like Parasoul. They’re over-the-top characters and that’s painfully obvious. It’s the same with the others. Everything in this game is exaggerated and over the top-- but nothing in it feels like it’s honestly telling me that I or any other woman is inferior to anyone.
It’s the contrary, really. Look at the game’s setting. The entire premise hinges around a constant, ongoing power struggle between women. Whether as a result of clamoring for the Skull Heart over the years or otherwise, women in this story seem to be treated as total equals to men. Possibly even further-- due to the nature of said conflict, men might end up being the ones sidelined in Skullgirls. We have yet to see if that last point will hold true.
So, yeah-- Sexualized character designs? Sure-- and how! Sexist? Nope! Sure, it’s appealing. Yeah, there’s plenty of male gazey stuff to go around. But the characters themselves are solid. They have strength, but not only that, they have weaknesses that make them complex. That’s fine with me. People are eventually going to use female characters as fap material no matter how they’re depicted in story, Rule 34 says so. So I figure as long as the lady flashing panties is depicted as a real human being with interesting motives and more than just a vapid reflection of a personality, that’s not sexist. And this game’s got personality oozing out of every pore and every character. So that’s what I think.
PLEASEEEEEEE understand that nobody with even a shred of intelligence is arguing that this game isn’t sexualized. Praise the lord that we all have working eyes. What we/some/I am arguing is against a vocal minority who think the game is sexist, demeaning towards women, only something perverts would like, has no redeeming qualities and aims to sell based on sex appeal alone, does things far outside the range of variation of sexualization seen in other games or fighting games, etc.
Regarding sensibilities, there are certainly Japanese influences. However, there are a METRIC TON of American sensibilities and influences as well. More so than pretty much any other FG on the market now. That’s always why I pause when someone describes the game as “anime” (despite the fact the term as used in the FG community is SUPER vague). Its likely ignorance more than malice but its still annoying.
Concerning your last paragraph, I’m not sure what point exactly you are trying to make. Of course everything about a 2D game is intentionally drawn. Everything in a 3D game is intentionally modeled as well. Like obviously anything in this game or any other didn’t accidentally show up. The amusing thing, to me at least, about Noel is that they put the character in a mini-skirt which in any normal situation would produce pantyshots considering the actions she does and then went out of their way to avoid them while other female characters in the game do have pantyshots. Like huh? It seems random and inconsistent rather than “classy” (LOL). Either do it or don’t do it across the board. It’s that sort of logical inconsistency that puzzles and amuses me. Of course, in the grand scheme of things, this has no bearing on the quality of an actual game and is thus not something I can be really bothered to care much about.