I disagree with the idea of crying for buffs and nerfs, in all honesty. Sanford, Bonchan and Ryan Hart are all examples of differing styles and equally effective Sagats. Sagat is fine with his kit. Changing his cl.MP into a command removes one of the primary ideals of playing Sagat - he is a spacing heavy, footsie heavy zoning character. Every move has it’s space and it’s purpose. He is meticulous. He’s not a rushdown character, he is patience and perfection. You force other people to make mistakes, not compensate for your own.
That being said, do I think he needs a better TK? Sure, it would be nice for it to have an increased usefulness. But in all honesty, Sagat is a fantastic character for people who like to pick other people apart, get in their heads and force them to play your style of game. If they don’t want to buff TK, just give him a slightly better dash. It’s still kinda scrubby IMO, but it’s better than giving him senselessly unnecessary buffs just so scrubs can rely on OP stuff to play better in online ranked.
Here is why I disagree. You speak about Sagat’s precision, that is exactly why it would benefit him to have cl.mp as a command normal. Too many times does Far MP come out when you want cl.mp, because you know that after all the starting frame/ recovery etc doing that cl.mp animation would actually hit far, but not if the character got too close(anticipation). I.E of this, Guy’s flip, it would be ideal to Cl.mp that flip, especially the fast one, however the timing is a bit off because sagat needs him in kissing distance to do cl.mp animation, there is nothing precise about that…
He already has a command normal, wouldn’t hurt to give him this…
Cl.mp isn’t about making Sagat a rush down character, it’s about increasing the precision we have with him. Most of the Buffs dedicated Sagat players don’t make him OP at all, you still need to put in the work because he’ll be terrible on wakeup against many characters(still) and he won’t have OP damage like in vanilla to save him.
My buffs simply make it tougher for people to disrespect sagat and harder to knock him down/corner him because it’s game over with either.
I still disagree with changing it. He is a spacing and footsie-heavy character. It’s a cl. MP for a reason. It’s meant to be done up close. Against ALL of Guy’s Bunshin flips, you can either TU or f.HK and stuff them. If you’re throwing out a MP in footsies and someone gets caught by far MP, you’re obviously not in cl.MP range. You shouldn’t just throw out a move and hope it’s the one you want. You need to KNOW what move is coming out.
Again, why cater to someone who guesses wrong? If Sagat is played right, you can’t disrespect him. Sagat imposes his will on you. He trains you. That’s how he is supposed to be played. You force people to respect you. You force people to respect your tiger shots, then you force people to respect your anti-airs. You’re an immovable wall. Giving him a command MP because sometimes people get far MP instead of cl.MP doesn’t change anything about him fundamentally, in caters to weaker players who can’t utilize his tools and play correctly. It doesn’t make him more precise to give him a command MP, what makes him precise is that you need to know the spacing(that thing that Sagat is built on, that I mentioned before) in order to effectively use it.
Edit: To put it bluntly, it’s such an inconsequential change it’s not even worth doing/mentioning. I’ve never seen a higher level Sagat player mess up a MP, and I know for sure I don’t, and my Sagat is booty buttcheeks.
Edit again: This is also the second time I’ve seen you double-post something about Sagat in multiple threads, so I admit to small amount of exasperation.
I’ve contributed a ton to this forum both under my current handle and previous(tigerslap) to not care whether you’re annoyed that I double posted something(lol). I know how the traffic works on this forum.
The reason people want it as a command, is because it can still work at distances where it doesn’t come out I.E to prevent crossing up at max height…
No offence bud, you seem like a good guy with good knowledge of the game, but not even a month ago you posted…
‘Does Sagat kara fireballs in this? Doing a kara fireball has always been difficult for me, because I don’t honestly know how to do it. I can kara TK and TU with f.LK consistently, though.’
You obviously can’t know the struggle us Sagat players that have been through playing him for years now. My guess is you played SfXtekkn sagat
You have your opinions, I have mine. I won’t continue to clutter up a community thread with silly trash talk and banter. If you want me to validate myself, I have honestly nothing to prove, but you can absolutely let me know in a DM and we can talk it out there. No sense in ruining other people’s conversations with pettiness.
Although I said it before and I’m leaving it in: if you think contributions to a forum or length of time here carries weight about how good you are, or how valid your opinion is, you’re both ignorant and mistaken. And don’t think because I have an issue with execution that it means I don’t know the character I play, or what game I play him in. If you looked at my signature, you’d likely not have to make ridiculous assumptions.
That’s just it though. People don’t respect Sagat, why would you? He hits like a girl. Lose half your life getting in then take his once you do. It’s not Sagat that’s the problem. It’s the fact that too many characters can dominate him with little effort. So you either take them down a peg or you bring up Sagat.
I’m all for buffs myself. The top characters all have way more tools, better damage and better set ups than Sagat. I’m sick of people complaining about “that would make him OP” or “That would make him easy mode”.
Seriously? In a game where Cammy exists, Akuma has a forward moving focus breaker thats safe on block and leads to a knock down?! In a game where Fei Long just needs to throw random rekka’s out and they throw you to the corner, a game where unblockables can decide a match, a game where in certain situations there is NOTHING certain characters can do to escape the OS options… a game where my damn Ultra can whiff straight through a character because I forgot that it’s gawd damn character specific.
Give me buffs.
Doesn’t help either when every piece of character specific tech in the history of SF4 works on Sagat.
Ryan Hart holding the world record for the most international wins?
Just sayin’…
And I can agree with you to some extent, Highlandfireball. I can agree that there are characters with far more tools and far greater options, but I’d rather see them taken down a peg than characters being given pointless buffs. Seriously? You believe a simple command change for his cl.MP is going to be the game-breaker that makes Sagat compete with Fei, Cammy and Akuma?
I’m of the firm belief that all the characters in games should be equal in their own regard. What makes a fighting game unique is that not every character can beat every other character. There will be good and bad match-ups. Don’t get me wrong, I do believe every character should still have a fighting chance(6-4 at the worst), but it takes a long time to find that perfect equation - especially with an armada of characters and people begging for more because their favorites didn’t get in.
So yes, I do feel that Sagat could use some changes(I did mention an upgrade to TK, preferably damage. And it seems pretty universal that everyone wants low TS to have it’s old recovery), but I also think that other characters deserve way more attention.
There’s a big difference between discussing what characters need buffs/nerfs and crying about buffs/nerfs. I’m against the latter.
Edit: I forgot to mention, fixing stupid stuff like Ultra 1 pulling your opponent out of the corner/not getting all the hits. Ultra 2 not confirming every single hit off an FADC doesn’t bother me too much, but I’ve started to use that Ultra more lately and it’s definitely becoming noticeable.
yep give us buffs. I can work my tail off playing smart against a cammy to take 30% of her life in about 20 seconds, only to lose 40% of my life in one silly guess and have no options on wakeup.
holy hell, at the very least make it that landing a well spaced special (TK) do more damage than a jab. Shoot, well spaced safe boxer rush punch doesn’t do 20% of its damage if its safely spaced on hit.
No, that wouldn’t make a difference to most matches. The thing is right now the games actually quite balanced aside from the majority of the vortex characters being slightly too strong. I think a tweak to Cammy’s damage/stun and probably Akuma’s sweep might do the trick among other things but it sounds like they might just buff the other characters.
I think Sagat just needs that 20-30 damage on the TU and a little bit better frame advantage and damage on TK. It’s not really that cool to have Akuma or Cammy vortex the fuck out of me for to then whiff a DP and I get what…? 230? 270? Most characters can do 200+ from a simple hit confirm from a mashed throw tech… Sagat gets …what? 160?
Either that or make the Angry Scar much more damaging. Right now the line between AS and EX TU is pretty thin. If you want me to waste a bar make it worth my while and not just for styling on noobs.
I get that he’s supposed to be tough to play but when I watch Ryan Hart get absolutely demolished by infiltration, my hearts not saying “maybe if he had the st.lk cancel back he could do better” , my hearts saying " Sagats fucking ass tier and get’s counter picked all day"
Another problem is the Ultra’s but that’s a whole other ball game. Entire matches swing as soon as certain characters get Ultra but that’s because the games designed like that. I mean should Cammy be able to ABC vortex the shit out of me and THEN hit a reaction Ultra through a fireball from mid screen? This game’s just not designed for fireballs and that’s all Sagats got.
I consider “losing” not making top 8. What do you consider winning? Only taking 1st? By that logic, Hakan is better than a majority of the cast just because Infiltration used him in the finals.
Also, no comment about Ryan Hart having the world record for most international wins? Conveniently forgot about that one, huh?
I think sagat needs buffs yes. I do also think people like to rely on him being hard to much as an excuse for losing. A characters difficulty shouldn’t be the main thing you look at when you lose. It should be what did I do wrong or what could I do to change what happened. Sagat has options at most ranges. Shit is hella hard at alot of them. But that shouldnt be a cop out. He does need a tu buff,st lk back,and a knee buff. But you dont have to have them to win. Ryan heart beat mago recently. It can be done. Just depends on the player and work ethic you are willing to put in…with all that said I do think sagat benefits from a solid secondary to cover some bad matchups. But so do alot of characters.
Totally agree with tyler there . I don’t want anything ridiculous hell i like playin bad matchups i just want certain things slightly improved so i can make ppl respect the king more.
Actually winning is considered being first and taking home the top prize, not some bs your warped logic came up with.
Infiltration used him to counter pick characters, by your logic Akuma must be worse than a majority of the case because infiltration didn’t use him only in the finals.