The matchup is really bad for ryu, just because it gets even IF ryu gets in doesnt make it pretty even. U might aswell say sagat vs zangief is even cuz once zangief gets in he can win. And why are FP champ, arturo, ppn, yhcmochi special people? They all beat daigo and some of them aren’t even on his level. Sim has every tool to counter ryu. Without daigo people would say this matchup is 7-3 cuz other ryu players like alex valle gets raped by dhalsim.
I hope Daigo start conterpicking Sim with another character just to show we are not talking about the same class.
Daigo has to use all his bag of trick just to keep this match up close to 5-5. Meanwhile Dhalism dont even need to make
a 2 hit combos to win.
When Daigo is revising his big combos with 4 ex bar before a Dhalsim match, you know he need something extra to win.
As far as I know, Ryu doesn’t have anything that’d actually beat it. I usually just empty jump in, landing just out of reach of it. Then you can whiff punish if he went to anti-air and if not…you’re right in front of him, which is where you want to be.
Theli…do you really get chipped by yoga fire that much at full screen? You got a fireball, too, man. And empty jumps and focus…Don’t get chipped.
This thread is so ass, and so disrespectful to Ryu players like Alex Valle. If Ryu’s match up w/ Dhalsim is 8-2 or even 7-3 then what does that mean for other players who AREN’T Ryu and don’t have his tools.
This is one of the saddest reaction to Daigo losing threads EVER!
well, i tried learning sim just so i could improve at this matchup. it seems that my knee has gotten hit by jumping fierce before. but maybe i just timed the knee wrong?
you’re right that you dont get chipped from full screen, but sim doesnt keep you at full, he keeps just in st.HP range. This way he can trade with you when you throw fireball, or hit you during your startup when you try. He tries to be as random as possible too, to keep you from getting off psychic dps / fa’s.
This thread started way before daigo lost at socal. If you don’t like it move onto another thread. It’s not disrespectful to alex valle at all. I believe on this very thread Sabin said that alex valle had never beaten him before. I think it’s disrespectful to valle and the other really good ryu players to call this match even or 5.5. if this is the case why do they lose so much? even the commentators were talking about whether daigo would choose another character because the matchup was so bad. do you think they would say this if he was fighting dictator - i doubt it. they would probably just say this is a really tough match for ryu.
Look at the combos and links that daigo is doing in the matchup. It’s like watching a combo video - but he still can’t win. champ had amazing defense, but it still doesnt mean the matchup isnt ass.
Yeah, what bguile said. You can’t keep up the fireball war constantly and not expect to get a few normals around your ankle and groin region. Same with empty jumps and focus, you can get tagged there as well. And if you just end up blocking, you’re taking the chip plus giving him meter from whatever normals he can make you block as well. It’s fine to take a breather and collect yourself sometimes. But I really don’t see how letting yourself get locked down for an extended period blocking in a corner will help you figure out a dhalsim player.
Hado, empty jumps, focus… Yeah you can use these tools to get around some chip sometimes. But like dhalsim’s pokes, they’re not a perfect solution.
In other news…
Ryu has matches where he goes less than even. No whining. It’s normal. I’m fucking tired of people bitching about the ryu forum for talking about match-ups just like every other fucking forum talks about match-ups.
When you come to whine and bitch about some whiny bitches, you’re not doing anybody any favors.
Does anyone have frame data for yoga tower? Daigo looked totally lost against this move. I bet a lot of sim players are going to be trying it out in the corner now.
“Don’t have his tools”? rolls eyes Good Lord, I’m tired of seeing this line. The characters that don’t have Ryu’s tools have tools of their own. Often times their tools are better suited to fight Sim than Ryu’s are.
Sim is a brutal matchup for Ryu. Traditionally, it always has been. In Ryu’s normally optimal range, Sim can pretty much shut down the main cornerstone of Ryu’s game, namely the fireball, as well as effectively neutralize one of the others, that being low forward. Sim has little reason to want to approach Ryu, so Ryu’s SRK is also generally ineffective on anything but guesses.
Also, Ryu’s tools give him no safe way to approach Sim. It’s true that once Ryu gets in he can take 40-50% of Sim’s life on a single rush, but often Ryu will have to sacrifice or risk that much of his own life just to get in position to even attempt it. Also, Ryu’s rushdown isn’t versatile enough to guarantee an opening, nor overpowering enough to keep Sim from getting out if Ryu’s not careful. On top of that, simply damaging Sim will give him access to Ultra, and when used properly, the only safe option for Ryu is to retreat. Putting him right back in a bad position.
Actual matchup numbers I’m not going to even pretend to be sure of, but it’s a lot worse than a minor disadvantage (5.5-4.5). Maybe in vanilla SFIV, as Ryu did serious damage and Sim didn’t, but in SSFIV, Ryu loses this battle solidly by the numbers.
He’ll try to keep you right at s.hp range, but that isn’t a good place to be for you, and you walk faster. You don’t have to be there, so step out of range.
Step out of range and do what? That’s not a position where you can capitalize on Sim jumping or otherwise neutralizing your fireballs, it gives Sim more space to work with, and allows Sim to back you into a corner. Once you’re backed into a corner from stepping out of range, Sim can harass you at his leisure. Ryu doesn’t win this match by backing up.
I dont think you are understand. This is the input Im talking about. cr.Lp,fwd+st.Lk+HP pause 2 frames, cr.Lp~LK. The follow up is what is getting plinked. Throw cant possibly be kara’d from a crouching position. As a side note a video of Air was put on youtube where it shows him doing this vs Rose. cr.Lp. st.LP+LK(chained), st.LP. I have no idea why he did that. I dont think that will grab Rose so I dont know what his intent was.
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Sure a blocked step kick could change momentum, lots of moves could. Remember we are talking about a blocked step kick. A blocked step kick has a long block stun, so there should be no instant surprise that something will follow after and you cant react in time.
That 1st bolded part is what I’ve been saying. Its like people are getting thrown off by the range/animation of the step kick. Either they are not trying to think deeper or that concept is too far out there for them to comprehend. Thats why after blocking a step kick and you decide to just block, and Abel went with a cr.LP, you still have to worry about a TT. And thats exactly what Abels do because a raw TT off a step kick is more unsafe. All Abel did was follow one long range tic into a close range, shorter block stun tic, into TT. Saying that the range of the step kick/tic is what makes it advantageous is an opinion anyone is entitled to have. IMO its a silly opinion. Thats the property of the move. If I were to say FB has more advantage than the step kick since it isnt limited at any range, so Ryu has the advantage. That is just silly thats the FB’s property. Tho Im sure there are people out there who would believe this.
I’ll show an example of someone not able to see how their view of two special moves’ properties(which all the moves he is listing have) are similiar but yet he somehow see it different.
.
Of course DP isnt a safe defensive option. Thats why I only listed the safest options to TT initially. But If you want to cry about those give you no damage output then DP away. I’ve already listed the options to defend against a predicted TT. Im not going to list them again. Those options leave you just as long to punish a whiffed TT that you would have to punish a whiffed DP. So you can kill all that damage output noise. If landing TT off a various tic’s(nothing more than pressure) is what puts Abel at an advantage vs Ryu well then Ryu can feel consoled at the fact that he is not alone. That must mean Abel is at an advantage vs everyone.
Yes momentum is important. Here is something to watch for as far as momentum is concerned. Go watch some Ryu vs Abel matches (or any Abel matches) and pay attention to who actually is forced to block more during the match. When momentum changes, what was it that changed it? A blocked step kick? Or the guess that came after? Now that Abel has the momentum did he keep it or did he lose it? what allowed him to keep it or what caused him to lose it?
The point of talking about zoning? Well I just gonna say Im not a fan of cutting out a setence of something I have said, then ignoring the rest. My reasoning is all there and have even stated that everyone(good) will get in despite your zoning. I’ve been posting too much just repeating the same thing in different ways. And its all pointless. everyone gots their own opinion and they are not looking to discuss it just looking to state it.
And Im not looking to change it but I guess in a way I am.But its more of having you re-evaluate your opinion. Im looking for evaluation of mine as well. If the opinion is “unequal damage output” and it is not well Im just gonna let it be.
Here is the example I alluded to earlier.
DarthPaul said:
This is gonna seem like an attack but it aint . You can take it hoever you want to. Your understanding of moves is subpar. In your very own “Fireball spacing guide” which I think you refer to as " The footsie guide"(I think thats what you are refering to when you say that) this is what you say.
Ok its a list of moves that beat FB. A list not a guide.
Here is your attempt at a guide.
?Abel
?EX roll / range = 3.3, Frames = 35, INPUT = 23
?FK roll / punish Range : 3.2 Frames = 41 (to get invinc’) min’ INPUT = 17
?Jump : range : 2.6 Frames = 36 (APROX 0) INPUT = 22
?EX wheel : Range : 2.5 Frames = 18 INPUT = 38
?EX COD : Range : 2 Frames = 16 INPUT = 31.2
?MK roll / punish Range : 1.8 Frames = 34 (to get invinc’) INPUT = 24
?FA Dash : range = 1.5 frames = 31 , INPUT = 22
?FA LVL 2 : range = 1.2 frames = 32 INPUT = 23
?Furthest : F.MK. Range = 1.5
?Optimum : Range 1.6 INPUT 22
?U1 Range = 3.0 Frames = 14 INPUT = 44
?U2 Range = 3.0 Frames = 8 INPUT = 47
All nothing but numbers that you came up w/ somehow. And thats fine you form your guide how you want to. Its yours.You believe everything in this “guide” is “100% factual” despite the fact that Ex wheel, Ex roll, Ex CoD, all have the properties to get past a fireball. Now they all have the same input, only difference is the direction and buttons. Yet you somehow have different ranges for each one. Let me guess somehow the fact that these moves looks different had bearing on the range. It must be that because if you are comparing the properties that allow them to get thru the fireball you wouldnt have different “100% false” numbers
So if you can comprehend how all those moves “are the same” and thus should have the same ranges that might apply to you then maybe you can begin to understand how " a step kick compares to a sodding jab"
And Bguile. I dont think your dumb, you only like to act dumb. If you want to up your trolling ability, your gonna have to work on something better than “hahaha you were wrong about this” and “hahah your trying ohard” That ish works on lightweights as we’ve seen before. Your gonna have to come up we/ some worldbeater tactics.
With that Im not going to post on this subject anymore. There is only two people who I can see I could learn from that would be Theli and Luken. Those are the ones I would advise everyone to pay attention to. Before I would only post when someone that came here sincerely asking for advice to improve, only to be told “that block string is dumb” “you should never do that”.I just felt bad for him didnt want him leaving believing he got some good advice. Im just going to stick w/ that.
edit: I didnt mean those are the only two you can learn from. I only meant of those that regularly post. As in everyday. There are lots of people who only post occasionally who I’ve learned from when they give bits and pieces of their knowledge here and there.
theres a reason for why u dont see top players doing what you are sugesting. Find any dhalsin player and just try to do these things you suggested, then get back here and we gonna discuss about your results.
Not backing yourself to the corner is sf 101…thought it would go without saying not to back up until you can’t anymore. But, you could step out of range and punish his s.hp. Sweep or c.mp xx hado both work and give you a chance to gain ground if you land them. When he whiffs a s.hp, it’s also a good time to jump forward, if you can’t get the whiff punish. He can’t do anything, because he’s recovering. If he doesn’t throw the hp…chuck plasma. It will keep him from moving forward and cornering you. If he slides under the fireball…make a choice, dp or don’t, cuz there’s probably a limb headed at you.
What exactly is this supposed to mean? Sim is a match I’m pretty comfortable with. I’m familiar with his options. He does have some way to punish all that stuff I mentioned, but most of it is prediction, not reaction. He’s playing the same rock/paper/scissors game you are. Like focusing his fire. If I’m around s.hp range and he does yoga fire, and I focus it and backdash I’m safe if he did s.hp to keep me in block stun. If he anticipated me focusing and backdashing, he’ll delay his hp, and hit it to punish my backdash. If I empty jump, he can neutral jump mp me, but I’m pretty sure that’s a guess, too. If I blocked, and he jumped, I get to move forward. Nothing wrong with fireballs either, just buffer them, and hit punch when you see his. Not going to get punished for throwing a fireball just after he used his. He has to recover. Can’t avoid all chip damage, as it kind of looks like I meant, but it shouldn’t be a huge issue unless he’s giving up his super to whore out the ex yoga fire.
Sim is definately a difficult matchup, but it’s not unwinnable. You can theory fight all day, but when it comes down to it, this is a very scrappy match. It’s never gonna be pretty, and you’re not gonna win without a good read.
Who said it was unwinnable? It’s difficult. It’s disadvantageous. What I’m trying to say is that whiff punishing s.HP isn’t reliable, and you can back yourself into a corner very easily. You’ll end up having to take a risk sooner or later, and Sim dealing with your options at that point isn’t nearly as risky. Chucking plasma? Risky. DPing in response to merely sliding under a fireball? Very risky. A good Sim isn’t going to be that predictable with his pokes or fireballs. And you say chuck plasma if he doesn’t throw a limb, but then you say wait till you see his fireball before you throw your own. Which is it?
And there you have it. On the other hand, Sim doesn’t really need a good read to win, and even with a good read or two that doesn’t guarantee you victory.
So it should be obvious that that it’s a much more difficult matchup than a 5.5-4.5.
Sim-Ryu match up.
6-4 in Sim’s favor. No doubt about it. Ryu can only guess and play by luck. Sooner or later Sim would fall less to his tricks. Sim’s jump back HP sniper move/crouch attack mix up from far grant him advantage that force Ryu out of turtling. There after he can just play reactively, while ryu have to guess. Even if knock him down with a successful random dp, it doesn’t mean ryu could rush down. It is still dependent on distance. I beat Sim all the time, but mostly it only meant that they r not strong enough Sim. You can’t rush a good strong Sim that can pull off delayed tech throws well, with jump back and FA backdash mix. The problem with this match up, is that Sim can play totally by reaction, and many of his guesses such as jumping fwd early to catch a hado with reactive hp are safe and not punishable even with wrong guess. Ryu on the other hand is very punishable.
Ryu-Abel
5-5
Both are beast up close. The question is about who is putting the other on block string. The aggressor that is locking opponent down on block have the advantage.
To be successful in this match up, Ryu players must understand that :
In normal circumstances,
DP and normals < EX-TT < throw.
Normal and DP> TT > throw
All TT < jump < c.FP and close HP
But after a blocked Abel’s f.mk:
DP, normals and throws < EX-TT < Jump
HP cancel into change of direction, fadc into c.hp then U1 or c.HP cancel into ultra/air grab or HP cancel into Super > Jump
*Note, you cant jump in time to escape close HP after a blocked f.mk. The hp would hit on the ground making full ground combo land, while c.hp would hit off tip of elbow.
That is y u never wanna block Abel f.mk. U risk huge damage whichever option you take and Abel have options that risk very little for it. And that is also the reason why Abel f.mp is a stupidly overpowered move that is highly abused. I’ll opt to eat an ex-TT any time if I blocked a f.mk when he have ultra/super. It’s basically free good damage for him, and he can do it in so many different scenario like off a c.lp block string, on the ground when ryu jumped in from far, meaty when ryu fall to ground, close block string then backdash to bait a normal whiff then f.mk or walk fwd f.mk if I didnt counter…
As long as Ryu player understand the payoff and the special characteristic about Abel, that he can be thrown off an ex-TT except after a f.mk block, this is a 5-5 matchup. It would have been advantage to Ryu, due to footsie. But Abel ex-COD (can be FADC into c.hp ultra) means that this is a 5-5 matchup. Ryu have a very slight advantage if you can keep very good spacing to punish his wheel kick on reaction, getting some chip damage and refusing to spam normal unless is to punish whiffs. That’s y sometime we see daigo dance with Abel on close range until time up, without attacking at all in this match.
You probably need to check your definition of the word ‘guide’. … anyway.
Here is your attempt at a guide.
- They reach different ranges. DERP! Not hard to understand. One move will reach FURTHER than the other. Get it?!
2)The INPUT is defined in the guide as the amount of time the player has to INPUT the move. They all have different ranges and different frames, resulting in different times to … well ya get the idea. You might not cause you are stupid, but anyone else with half a brain will. - Range refers to … range.
Bottom line is. I called you out on one retarded statement you made - that a step kick is comparable to a jab. DERP!.. i cant even be bothered to explain how retarded that is… And once I argued with you about 1 thing, you cried like a pathetic little bitch and try and fail to prove me wrong because EX COD EX Roll and EX Wheel all have the same range. LMFAO.
in other news : so very bored of SRK.
My defintion of a guide= how to do things
DarthPaul’s definition of a guide= a list of moves, ones that have made up numbers. Some guide Einstein.
Yes because a wheel kick has different range than Cod lets do it from back there instead.Why not , it reaches from there. LMAO. It reaches from CoD range. Now whos stupid. Now the “fireball spacing masterguide” has become a “guide” of the moves range and not a “guide” of the range you need to react to a FB.
all those moves require the same input. So if you need at least three characters lengths of distance (Hey! a measurement using a characters width, something that has been used almost 20 years) to be able to input your CoD on reaction, well then you need 3 characters length to do the wheel kick too. Because you know its a “guide” of what range you need to react…or is it??? And because you know the wheel kick has the same range as the CoD. Yea the wheel kick reaches out ALL THE WAY from 2.5 lets come to the conclusion that is the optimal range instead 2.0. Yeah figure that out.
Lol at calling me out. All you did was say you dont understand how the two can be compared. Me crying like a bitch? Child please. All I did was show you why you dont even understand your own garbage, so I can see why you dont understand anything else. Just like you dont understand why something isnt a “dumb blocksting” or tatsu escape is "pussy. But keep thinking you actually have a clue.
I’m aware. I must not have picked up that there was a delayed second input in what was suggested.
My statement of “In any case, any kind of plinking into a throw tech hasn’t been proven viable and just seems so unlikely to work for me.” is still relevant. A c.lp~lk plink is unlikely to result in a proper tech unless the plink input is failed. If you just meant to press c.lp+lk after the suggested OS, then that’s fine. If you did want to plink a normal in there, then c.lk~lp is what would actually work. Although then you’re plinking a 4 frame instead of a 3 frame of course. There is no way to plink lp alone without abusing the select/back plink glitch.
Sometimes people make input mistakes or have bad habits. Only way to find out would be to ask. It doesn’t seem like that input as stated would result in anything valuable.
Even if it is not impossible to commit to a good response in a situation, that doesn’t mean that a player will do so every time. The pressure in momentum comes from an unsure situation where failing to respond properly is significant. Even with the delay of the dash cancel, I would still say that there is real pressure involved.
And yes. Not only do you have the problem of what they do after the dash, but also what they do after what they did after the dash. Believe me when I say that I do understand this concept. It is what I’m referring to when I say that f+mk DC can give momentum at all.
But the range does make it advantageous. It allows the creation of this momentum during footsies from ranges where other characters can’t do the same. The range may not be what makes the momentum itself good. That has to do with abel’s abilities after he gets in. But that’s not the point.
Just to re-iterate, solar plexus strike is not as good as abel’s step kick because…
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It’s a much slower poke. (Much slower to connect at 17 frames compared to 7.)
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He has no immediate anticipatory punishment for if the defender chooses to wait for a followup attack or techable throw attempt. (The momentum after you get in from a block is better for abel because of his other moves. This includes ticks into TT, as that is part of the pressure.)
It is an advantage. That he is at an advantage, versus ryu or anyone else, overall is something else. There are a lot of elements to this. I personally feel that Abel has a slight advantage over ryu overall. I can’t point to any one or two elements that results in this. It is a combination of all the capabilities of each character and how players have been able to take advantage of them up till now.
Why? You have a problem with one poster’s opinions which I feel that you want to respond to as a way to comment on all the players of a character or posters of a forum (whichever it is.) Go ahead if you want, but it seems like a waste of time to me. SRK bickering man…
The blocked step kick and the guesses/attempts after are part of the same instance of momentum. That is the way I see it.
Well I’m sorry you felt that way about my response there. It just seemed to me that you jumped off on a tangent about zoning while you were responding to me. It seemed the suggestion was that the basis of the balance between ryu and abel came down to that and little else. So that there wasn’t even a point in discussing those other elements. I guess that wasn’t what you were saying? But that is how it appeared to me at the time.
To pick out another statement of “If the opinion is “unequal damage output” and it is not well Im just gonna let it be.” I don’t think I ever suggested that it only came down to a difference in damage output. That is part of it. (Not that there is necessarily a big difference in the damage of major punish combos, but more what different characters are able to pull off in different situations and the follow-up potential for more.) But there are many elements.
I guess this section of your reply is just a response to DP? So should I stay out of it or what?
Well, the main complaint seems to be about the range numbers. Is that really such a big deal? It could be clarified so that range is listed as a…range I guess. Like a “2-2.5” kind of deal. The problem then is that the amount of time to input would also have to be listed as a range. That could work, but adds even more data to parse for the reader. But without that, it’s more difficult to make sense of it… So I don’t know.
DP does want to make graphics to display the information more clearly. With that you can see the desire to help it be understood is there. So I couldn’t fault DP for what he’s attempting if it’s a question of clarity. But I guess this note might have more to do with responding to perceived disrespect from DP, who is responding to perceived disrespect from you, and back, and forth, and on, and on, and on, and on… Just like BG, and D, and m, and on, and on, and on… Meh. (Don’t want to single you or anyone out. Just wanna say my “Meh.” about all the forum bickering between everybody lately.)
Good luck. God knows I’ve tried to stop posting. And I’m just getting worse.
Well thanks for that… Not sure what I do to get any of that kind of respect from people. Just trying to not pretend like I know more than I do. I don’t think other people pretend or anything. But it’s easy to get your ego involved. And it’s fucking tiresome making sure that you’re understood and that you understand what everybody else is trying to say. I have way too much time on my hands to be able to do this at all.
If you backed out of s.hp range to attempt to whiff punish, and he doesn’t use s.hp, you can throw a fireball. This keeps him from moving forward into range to actually hit with the s.hp. He has to stop walking forward to throw yoga fire or to block.
If you are inside his poke range, buffer and throw the fireball to destroy his, if he uses it.
I was talking about two different situations. That’s how I play this match. I pay attention to what the other player does in these different situations. I’m not even arguing the matchup numbers you guys are talking about. Don’t really care about those.