really? even considering the drones (L and M versions) get blown up by any beam projectile and the fact that he’s a walking “free instant overhead” sign?
Yes, I know Sentinel has anti-air and air to air options. I just wouldn’t coun’t those options as great keepaway options. The range in his normals is good but you still need to be fairly close to make them count. You can play keepaway with Sentinel but I think his zoning is one of the easiest to avoid in the game. Of course it might be that I’ve just never played any good ones.
I only keep away with Modock. Real men don’t run from a fight!
I played Cable/Sentinel/Capcom in MVC2, so I have a pretty damn good knowledge of keepaway…
In Keepaway, you simply just piss your opponent off with safe chip moves and wait for the opportunity to mess them up… Why do you think Cable was so successful in MVC2? Seriously. Gun, TK grenades, sent assist, occasional jab viper beams, strong gtfo assist and then when your opponent does something retarded, AHVB… This is a damn good formula to frustrate your opponent in MVC2.
In MVC3, its just the same, except no Cable bullshit.
I don’t care what people say, keepaway is very effective in this game. Most of these characters that have teleports can get hit out of it midway through it by projectiles. Phoenix, Dante, and Dormammu are the exceptions. Dante’s and Dormammu’s teleport is good, but its predictable as shit. When I play Arthur, I simply throw a magic sword occasionally and then they are denied a teleport…
I think what makes keepaway less favorable is the fact that the GTFO assists in this game aren’t true anti-airs. Shoryuken, Jam Session, Stars and Stripes and other invincible moves in this game aren’t invincible as assist, like they would be in MVC2.
In order to play good keepaway in Marvel IMO… You need a good keepaway character first off. Then you need a projectile assist, an Anti-Air, and a GTFO assist. In MVC2, it was mad easy, because most of the Anti-Airs in that game were GTFO assist also (IE. Capcom) and you can get any decent projectile assist (Drones) and a good keepaway character (Cable) and bam you got an annoying ass keepaway team.
For some reason, in MVC3, EVERY SINGLE AAA (anti-air assist) in the game is not invincible. So they can’t be used as GTFO assist. The GTFO assists (Haggar and Tron) are not true Anti-Airs. We can argue that they are anti-airs, but seriously, they’re not.
Because of that reason, keepaway seems hard as hell and rushdown seems mad easy.
/random thoughts about keepaway
Hulk’s gamma charge (AA) assist is not invincible, but it has super armor, so that’s probably the best actual AA assist you can use aside from haggar or tron.
It’s not much, but it’s something.
While I’m not a solid expert on either subject, I do tend to favor keep away in this game. I find it to be a sometimes better option, especially with characters that can wipe out other characters in a single combo. I play Deadpool, Jill, and Trish. Two of my characters are considered the best zoners in the game. I generally play with annoying the crap out of my opponents with Deadpool, waiting for them to make a mistake and lighting them up afterwards. I use Trish on Low Voltage assist. I’m wondering if Peakaboo might be a better assist, but the fact that it can be destroyed be a normal attack makes it sort of a bummer to use. And Low Voltage is useful for Jill too. Its just amazing how much disdain that people have for zoning characters but have nothing against mindless rushdown characters like Wolverine or Zero.
While I’m not a solid expert on either subject, I do tend to favor keep away in this game. I find it to be a sometimes better option, especially with characters that can wipe out other characters in a single combo. I play Deadpool, Jill, and Trish. Two of my characters are considered the best zoners in the game. I generally play with annoying the crap out of my opponents with Deadpool, waiting for them to make a mistake and lighting them up afterwards. I use Trish on Low Voltage assist. I’m wondering if Peakaboo might be a better assist, but the fact that it can be destroyed be a normal attack makes it sort of a bummer to use. And Low Voltage is useful for Jill too. Its just amazing how much disdain that people have for zoning characters but have nothing against mindless rushdown characters like Wolverine or Zero.
No mention of Captain America? He basically starts his bnbs from almost full screen. (Every time I mention Captain America, I wanna say please give him back his double jump, Capcom.)
Very anti-keep away. What interests me are the characters who just rush down or can control space from afar and up close like Wesker, Dante, Magneto, C. Viper, Sentinel, Dormammu and even Amaterasu.
Can’t stand it when people predominantly play keep away with Zero & Trish. Always more impressed by how Zero can open you up, and Trish just tickles you to death which is annoying. It’ll take 90 game seconds just for 1 character out of 6 on both sides just to die.
Got a guy in Jax I party with that found a pretty damn good keep away team of dorm, sentinal(bombs), haggar(lariat). He’ll occasionally switch out sent for doom rocks. A real aggrivating team. With sent bombing while dorm uses his meteors and pillars and if you try to rush, oh look, haggar is punching me in the face for a hard knock down that both dorm and sent can capitalize on. Doom also. And if you cant get close you eat massive chip and one hit from dorms black holes or carpets can be confirmed into super. He says its straight mvc2 black heart keep away but I was never big into mvc2 but this team is a pain.
To answer this post i generally prefer rushdown to keep away, bc i think rush down is more fun. and my favorite rush down team is wolverine, akuma and chun li. this is because this was one of my favorite teams from mvc2. And you gotta love that tatsu assist. However, i do tend to play keep away every once in awhile when i play somebody else who only does keep away, and generally my keep away team is Ammy, Sentinel, Doom with cold star, sent charge and hidden missile assists, and the great thing about this team is that it can be used as a rush down or a keep away team
Now that that being said, i was playing online the other day against my friend who loves to play keep away, so i decided i would too, except i mixed it up a little bit, what i did was i put hulk as my point and used magnetos and dr.doom beam assists and hidden missiles to play keep away with. Now this wierd because hulk is in almost no way a keep away character, but i found that with the proper assists he is the perfect point man for a keep away assist team. This is because of the invincibility/Super Armor that hulk has with his st.H. It’s perfect if your opponent wants to try and rush down, you hit them with that in between their combo string followed by a EM disruptor and right back to the corner they go. Now i’m not saying this is by any means an extremely good keep away team, i just figured that it was pretty unique and wanted to hear some other people’s opinions on it.
EDIT: i realized after reading through my post that the method using hulk is more of a zoning method than straight keep away. Oh well.
pensacola was on that team quite some time ago. We made it up to stop wolverine and we told jeff about the idea. Its definitely one of the better keep away strats I’ve seen in the game so far.
A lot of people think of keep-away as purely using projectiles and ranged attacks, and doing nothing else (due to the nature of the words “keep-away”). But effectually in fighting games, it’s more about doing as much damage as you can before your opponent gets to you. Especailly in Marvel. Take Hulk for example - he’s probably the least mobile and most vulnerable to keep-away. But even Hulk with a mediocre assist is going to eventually get to you.
Considering this and taking things one step further, theoretically what’s the trick to good keep-away then? Use the ranged attacks to force your opponent to pursue you, restrict their options, and force an vulnerable opportunity that you can engage your opponent.
Admittedly, a lot of the top-tier rushdown characters are very good at fighting keep-away. Wolverine, Wesker, Dante, Zero, etc. But all of these characters have specific ways to counter it. So you just have to learn the ranges and find a way to counter them with your team.
The problem with that, is right now the strongest options to stop them are Haggar or Tron assists, and I’ve never been a fan of having to use a character for a specific assist if the characters concept does not actually fit the team. Neither of them are really keep-away characters… which sucks.
I actually want to make a keep away team, ever since I first started playing the game I’ve liked Trish and Dorm, and Skrull I have the same issue (although he’s not keep away, hes still a zone based character and very weak when opponents get close). I never could figure out a way to build a team around them well, which ended up in me not being as skilled playing them. Problem is, if I’m making a keep away team I’ll have to learn at least 2 characters I don’t know how to play at once for the team to be based around keepaway, while learning how to play the entire team in a different way that usual, which is very frustrating as soon as you go against a rushdown character who will get frame advantage and take you out in a single combo. So I end up saying “I’ll just learn 1 character at a time with my normal team”, but that’s not ideal, so I end up going back to my usual team lol.
Maybe a better idea to figure out how to make keep away more viable would be to share some Tech for how to counter the rushdown characters WITHOUT Haggar or Tron? Maybe make a list of the problematic pursuit mechanics and make a section for each character? For example, on Trish how do you handle Wolvies berzerker slash, dive kicks mixups, Dante’s teleport mixups, etc? Then do the same for the other keep away characters, Dorm, Doom, Arthur, etc. Maybe even add specifics for how to counter Wolvie/Akuma best friend tricks?
keep away is gonna be a bigger part of the game in ultimate so if you hate it now you better learn to deal with it or start doin it yourself
I predict while keepaway will be better…rushdown will still run this game in UMVC3. If you want to be a tourney winner, play a rushdown derp team. One hit is all you need.
In vanilla you’re never gonna be able to keep away. Not for too long anyhow. I’m hoping that changes in Ultimate.
As far as Marvel is concerned although I feel keep away is weak I feel zoning is exceptionally strong. The damage is high enough that making people block or run in to just a few zoning tools can lead to massive rewards depending on the team composition. I think the primary issue with the concept of zoning that most people use is that they expect characters like Arthur to be the best zoners when Viper, Magneto, Wesker, Zero, etc are much more solid at controlling the enemy’s space. Almost all of the good characters in Marvel 3 are exceptionally scary in every situation as opposed to just keeping people away and since in general more people are rush down oriented we see a lot of rush down. The fact that Viper with Taskmaster vertical arrows can convert a zoning game on hit into a dead character, or that Zero fishing with full screen busters can do the same is rarely seen but exceptionally powerful. Zoning is exceptionally strong in this game and the top characters have tools that completely eradicate lower tiers based on their lack of ability to move forward safely.
People look to a character like Arthur for zoning, but when he needs gauge or assists to convert his daggers into actual damage Wesker with Magneto assist requires a connected gun then mashing A (and C) to convert his long range space control game into a combo that can either lead into a dead character, mix up, or perfectly re-established spacing game again.
keepaway is good guys, look I have some drawings of how ygets dragged to the insane asylum
The main reason keepaway doesn’t work in this game is because of low chip damage. Sure it can be frustrating for a player not getting in like they want, but if the players are on equal skill levels eventually the other guy will get in. Even if the player playing keep away was “successful” for 20 seconds it takes the guy trying to rush him down less than half of that time to get the life lead with a big combo. Also as someone said above because the game seems to generally favor rushdown it takes a team effort to make for good keep away. A lost character from a keepaway team is probably a much bigger deal than a lost character to a rushdown one.
Of course there are other things that effect keep away like there not being anymore true AA assists, but if chip damage on certain moves were turned up then keep away would be far more viable.
i can chuck daggers for 40 seconds as arthur but if derperine accidentally hits me with a berzerker slash i lose the character and possibly the round because it’s impossible to drop his combos and it’s so easy to convert into full damage off stray hits. it takes a LOT of projectiles to kill logan and only one (invincible, high priority, random crossup) to kill me. that’s pure keepaway in marvel 3 in a nutshell.
phoenix teams automatically beat keepaway teams because you will never stop them from getting 5 bars unless you snap in phoenix, which you can’t do at your optimal (full-screen) range.
you gain zero meter for chucking projectiles unless they hit / are blocked, so that kind of sucks too.
pure keepaway teams usually need get-off-me assists, which are often not keepaway characters themselves so it throws off team synergy, wheras on a rushdown team you’re never going to go wrong just adding wolverine or magneto or wesker in whatever spot because these characters don’t need assists to get in and go to work.
so it’s pretty obvious that to use a keepaway team you have to have some versatility built in to flip your gameplan and go fishing for fat combos every once in a while. if all you do is run away throwing projectiles you won’t win (too bad, cause that’s how i want to play. lol.).
Top tier characters make keepaway impractical. You can’t “keepaway” from teleports or invincible crossups a la berserker slash. Not to mention, if one of these characters hits you, you’re dead. If a Viper/Zero/Dante/etc hits you and you’re not dead, they’re not doing it right.