Rose vs Zangief

[acktessa]

I ve make some post early on the thread that explain a strategy u can use against gief and others things

Here it is:

Some notes from my experience against him

Soul Spark is relatively useless in this match.
At long long (more than mid-screen) range, LP Soul Spark give Zangief hard time as it’s difficult to time jump on it; he can lariat but u can dash or FADC to crouch HK, Soul Piede, slide (worst option), super or ultra (if u have);he can’t move back lariat on LP Soul Spark, he’ll get hit; . Why i think it’s useless? MP and HP version can be easily jump or lariat (FADC it? 2 stocks for no sure reward) and LP version game strategy is ruined by FA (safest option, plus, u don’t want zangief ultra grows fastly), Ex Green Hand (not sure for players aware that its not safe), timing Green Hand on it (after u must face 50/50 if u 've dash in). Good for his FA defensive option can be countered with HP Super on reaction after dash in.
At close/mid-close range, if u MP or HP Soul Spark he can easy jump, HP let u wide open, he can jump on LP one in reaction; ex Green Hand and advanced Lariat wins all Soul Spark version at this range; he can SPD, super or ultra u at close range (LP version can hit him but hey…high risky).
The safest Soul Spark u can throw is MP version at mid-long range (about mid screen), his only attack that can reach u is ex Green Hand. U know why LP and HP are not good (one’s recovery, other’s startup).
We can say that Runaway-Soul Spark-Runaway its not a viable tactic.

Soul Reflect and Soul throw are also useless. As for others characters, unless u predict jump, Zangief can trade easily and for Soul Reflect the safest is HP version on earlier jumping attacks (ex also but u can’t juggle with Super after) but he’s open to the others AA attacks too. Ex Soul Throw works well on later jumping attacks. As we ve touched AA strategy, i want to said that crouch HP must be avoided (only for earlier jumping attacks) since we know the existence of Zangief small range jump. I think the best AA options (which can work with all characters) are: FA cancel backdash, backdash, jump back, slide, fordward dash. And as everyone knows, some earlier jumping attacks are good AA in the game when well timed.
Rose air game is better than Zangief one’s (air HK, air HP, air MP), u ll rarely lose against him in air battle. Zangief best AA move: Lariat. If u re at close range while landing part from ur jump, u will never win against Lariat (crouch Lariat is horrible), trades maybe but damage is not on ur side. Air HK, Air HP, and Air MK can stuff earlier Lariat if spaced and timed correctly. Dont forget his crouch MP; later jumping MK, HK or HP stuff it. Empty jump at the right range to Ultra is a good strategy here. Vertical jump are good to escape some random Green Hand and punish them hardly, just be aware of his far HK. Cross ups can be done but are risky (its Zangief), just time it correctly. For jump back, lol, u ll do this a lot in this match; in the corner, jump back MK or HK are good when he jumps at u.

The heart of ur strategy with Rose against Zangief is mid range ground game. We all know that Rose pokes are maybe the best in SF4, so in mid range, Zangief will have a hard time. He also have some really good pokes (far MP) but u can manage them. Try FA cancel backdash to escape and to fill Ultra. Teach him not to FA your pokes with some random Soul Spiral. Until he get ex Green Hand, u can pest him with your pokes.
About Soul Spiral, HK Soul Spiral is Rose best move: High priority armor break special move that knockdowns and gives adv at tip (max frame adv=+1). LK and MK version should never be done outside of combos, at mid range u can be punish by LP/LK combos to ex Green Hand. Be careful of this one and his brother: Lariat, these 2 moves have higher priority and beat Soul Spiral clean. Also after a block HK version, if he like to counterattack, u have options depending of what he throw: FA and ex Soul Spiral against Green Hand and normal moves except L normals (if he do a normal that can combo to (ex) Green Hand, backdash cancel FA); Ultra against any moves except L normals (time it a little bit later against ex Green Hand); Super against any moves except ex Green Hand, Lariat and L normals.

What is gameplan from here?
U want to be at mid-long range against him, walks/jump/dash forward or backward in function of him at the start to position urself at this range.
Zangief only mid range ground game option except of his pokes is (ex) Green Hand which is unsafe, a good Zangief player will never do it, if so he will FADC (u get a free punition from it if he can’t) it on block to not avoid punition, this costs him super meter on wich he relies to win (ex Green Hand). For his Lariat, at this range, u can knockdown him with crouch HK. Because doing Lariat and Green Hand randomly at this range is bad, most of them go to crouch position (Rose crouch HK) and block, from here it becomes difficult and depends on some parameters and mind game from this position is crucial. The only thing i can say is, unless u have more life than him, if he can do ex Green Hand, he have advantage; u d better opt to a defensive game with vertical jump or backdash. If he can’t do ex Green Hand, u can do HK Soul Spiral, MP Soul Spark, crouch HK, dash to throw; but risk is just minimal because all of these options can be countered on reaction with Lariat or SPD.
To escape ground pressure, he can choose to jump at you; if u dont have ultra, i recommend to choose FA backdash cancel option to build it but u re free to use any AA option u know.
Knockdown scored, go to a meaty (ex) Soul Spark for wake up game if i can’t do ex Green Hand.
Here comes the loop of gameplan.

#Throws and crouch LP combos are ur friends, ur best offensive options at close range; backdash or jump back are the safest defensive option
#For Zangief 50/50, I have nothing to say; it’s 50/50: pray that u choose the right answer to the option he choose. But it’s better to get hit when try to escape with a jump or dash than to be thrown and return to the 50/50 position.
#Ultra (timed correctly) and Super can be used as AA.
#SS2AuraSS trap: At max screen range with Zangief with low life, LP Soul Spark cancel into HP Aura Soul Spark to kill him.

Too long for u, there is nothing i can do, i wanna explain why some stuffs are good and why others are bad. I use this strategy and it works well for me.

[acktessa]

I ve explained why soul spark is useless and i dont know why some people continue to talk about fadc soul spark which is also useless for me. Why? because, i say it before, u must have a guaranteed reward after. Fadc soul spark is good when gief fa ur projectile, but when u fadc, ure not sure if gief will fa ur spark; if he block, u must rebuild 2 super meter blocks. For me, the most rewarding use of super meter are punish with Aura SS and escape gief pressure and mix-up game with EX ST and drill. About FADC to Ultra, it works well when u already have ultra and reward is guaranteed only against PPP lariat at close-mid range; if he KKK lariat, waste of not only 2 super meter blocks, but also lost of ultra. Unless u have good reflex and prediction on ur side, i don’t recommend fadc. As u can see when i say useless i mean there are limited situations for it, it doesnt mean ss is not a good tool, because it is:

• against scrubby gief, when gief already have ultra, SS2AuraSS trap and random ss.

[acktessa]

Some stuff that can be useful.
Against a PPP lariat at close range, if u block the first hit, u can FA backdash the next one. Be careful because u re at the greenhand-to-SPD/Ultra set up range.

[Kail]

Acktessa. i’m sorry I have to disagree…slightly.

If we are talking about scrubbish Gief players I think everyone should be making them long lariat. Why? Because this will teach them not to abuse it. If they’re long range…outside of glove and outside of jump in range, LP soul spark. Here is how I access the competition.

a) Worse case they jump in. If they do that, you lost this battle…back dash and try another one. if they jump that one successfully…acktessa’s right. SS’s will be relatively useless in this match.

b)Absorb. Thats fine. Your still even with him at a slight disadvantage. One hit means more damage. If he stays back and just absorbs…make an EX soul spark hit. I dont care how you do it…but you can. He will probably just absorb out of reflexs.

c)He misjudges distance and eats a SS. Victory.

d)He uses a lariat and it passes through. If this happens…get ready. Throw another one. and start jamming dash. f.HK is too risky for me and doesnt offer a knock down. I prefer a c.HK.

e)He uses lariat and screws up the timing. Get ready. This player will probably try it again or jump over. I like to back dash once…and throw it. Sometimes this screws up the Giefs timing on the jump. If he lariats, see D.

Acktessa. I will agree, most GOOD Gief players will not fear rose. All they gotta do is get their hands on her a few times and its pose down time for Gief. They know the distance of the banishing flat. They know they can just stay on top of you without much fear. They know if they’re in the lead, they can sit back and make you come to them. Good players will not fall for this. 100%. But if your in championship mode and you know you can do it…Abuse the Gief. Make him a better player.

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Blocking Lariats Suck. But if you must…take the hit, and trip him, and get distance. Your whole job this match is to keep him away from you and abuse mistakes. Wiffed lariats are a huge mistake. Definately. I dont even know why you would just FA backdash a Lariat. cant you just take the first hit on block and trip him before the second?

[nacor_cb]

ugh, this match up is still a nightmare.

his body splash, st. LK, lariat; or empty jump, SPD/Ultra/Super mix up drives me crazy.

also i have found that, up close distance, Lariat sometimes beats rose Ultra, so it doesnt work as a reliable reversal against his cross up/mix up.

how do you people manage to scape from corners cross ups and mix ups Zangrief games??

[loopiz]

how do you people manage to scape from corners cross ups and mix ups Zangrief games??

jumping mix-up -> escape with ex drill
standing mix up -> stand proud and die. almost.

[Kail]

ugh, this match up is still a nightmare.

his body splash, st. LK, lariat; or empty jump, SPD/Ultra/Super mix up drives me crazy.

also i have found that, up close distance, Lariat sometimes beats rose Ultra, so it doesnt work as a reliable reversal against his cross up/mix up.

how do you people manage to scape from corners cross ups and mix ups Zangrief games??

Anticipate that splash and knock him out. If he that close to you that he can start standing lking and lariating…FADC out of there.

Yea, I decided not to ultra against Zangief close up. The only time i will use it is if he’s lariating (Aim for his hand, and dont let your arm touch his arms), if he’s jumping (And even then if hes close enough he can splash you out of it), or when he’s running to grab you (I think its a powerbomb).

I like sparking as a set up for ultra. If he’s far enough, and you suspect him of jumping a fireball, dash up immediately (No need to fadc but you can), and ultra a little after he jumps in. The Zangief will either accept his fate and take it, or try and splash out of instinct and get caught either way. You gotta time it. If you start it as he’s coming down it can be blocked.

On cross up, isnt it possible to EX ST? I never tried it but sometimes my ultra craps out and I’m able to soul throw people on a cross up (Which saves me, lol).

If your cornered, i like to EX Drill. Thats just me, I feel safe because most players are too agressive. If he jumps, try and slide under, but I question if this will work. If he’s smart he wont leave this opening so I rely on a reversal ex drill…thats just me.

But the trick is not to get cornered. Always be aware of your corner space. If he’s backing you in, you gotta find a way to get to the other side and get space. I like to bait the player into jumping and STing, thats just me…It looks disrespectful, lol.

Those are just my two cents, I dont play really good Gief players, mostly scrubby players.

[nacor_cb]

this is a very unfair match up for Rose. One mistake and you are (almost) dead. Its very frustrating, sometimes im able to win a round without taking damage and the next one im completely screwed.

anyways… im facing less Zangiefs lately. It seems people got bored of playing with him (no surprise because his gameplay is very limited and repetitive).

Thats a relief…

[loopiz]

this is a very unfair match up for Rose. One mistake and you are (almost) dead. Its very frustrating, sometimes im able to win a round without taking damage and the next one im completely screwed.
anyways… im facing less Zangiefs lately. It seems people got bored of playing with him (no surprise because his gameplay is very limited and repetitive).

believe me, playing zangief can much much more frustrating. good players know that keep away is the best strat against zang : picture yourself trying to run after a slippery rose/fuerte/akuma/cammy/chunli/ryu/gen/blanka/dhalsim…
his gameplay is one of the most exhilirating because you need to predict how your opponent is going to run away, and when you FINALLY get to reach him, you need to do the most damage before he escapes again.
high level matches with zangief either end up in very quick rounds or lengthy timeouts

[Luffy086]

This matchup is my worst… 35% winning against gief :(.
When Rose get knocked down, EX spiral tend to get hit by body spash sometimes (so its not totally safe to escape Gief), or he can fake a crossup then SPD, or i can try FADC out but sometimes but it wasnt a crossup so i end up taking 2 more dmg lol. Basically, a KD is HELL for Rose against Gief :’(.
I hate the fact that i’m leading the round by doing countless combo, then he get 2 combos in and we are even…

[Metroxylon]

if Lariat didn’t work like a dragon punch, I’d be all up in dat ass.

[Kail]

Treat the lariat like a DP, although its easier to pull off than a DP. I like to try and make the gief player throw the lariat out on reflex and punish him. Its one of the moves I can punish, so I want him to use it often.

I like saying “I want him to do this”, and then countering it. Thats a huge part of the game for rose i think.

[Acku]

I hate the mixup between lariat or SPD after knockdown. It’s even worse when the opponent actually doenst even know how to SPD and I constantly get hit by a mashed lariat. Haha. Those players must be so happy about their tactic.

[Metroxylon]

I hate the mixup between lariat or SPD after knockdown. It’s even worse when the opponent actually doenst even know how to SPD and I constantly get hit by a mashed lariat. Haha. Those players must be so happy about their tactic.

Zangief is the only character who can have a OBV (One button victory). I hope those players feel good about it. then I won’t think they’re such assholes.

[nacor_cb]

Zangief is the only character who can have a OBV (One button victory). I hope those players feel good about it. then I won’t think they’re such assholes.

i think 3/4 of Zangief players are assholes.

ok ok, sorry if any Zang player is reading this, i apologize.

but i have faced so many kids that thing they are wonderful players just because they win with Zang… lame.:arazz:

on topic, it seems in order to win, Rose players are forced to predict Zang jumps and anticipate to it.

i have been able to win several matches because of this; dictating the patch of the match with sparks and slides under the jumps + throws.

some people said good Zangiefs will FA the sparks, but they cant do this forever, and too many absorbed sparks could mean a lot of life lost after a small hit.

of course, miss one jump and you are screwed.

[Kail]

Honestly…if a Gief is good enough he could make you come to him. I mean, if you jump in and get a few hits on you, he’s got tools to keep him safe for a while. Hell…he could just block and watch time go down. Sparking alone wont win a match but sparking is used to get gief’s guard down in some way…may it be a missed jump or lariat…whatever.

But the key is for you to win this match you have to be in range to attack him. What if…he just doesn’t come to you. Sweet. Its a match for you to win that you gotta actually attack gief…

[Luffy086]

some people said good Zangiefs will FA the sparks, but they cant do this forever, and too many absorbed sparks could mean a lot of life lost after a small hit.

Gief can FA one spark, lariat one spark, FA one spark, lariat a spark…

His hp is full, his ultra is increasing :\

[futtock]

But lariats are what you want Zangief to be doing because they’re so punishable. If you’re expecting one then you should be able to dash and f+hk or c.hk.

[Luffy086]

Why is soul piede trading with lariat sometimes? Is there some timing to grasp ?

[Krayzie_Bone]

But lariats are what you want Zangief to be doing because they’re so punishable. If you’re expecting one then you should be able to dash and f+hk or c.hk.

Why risk something that would put you in a 50/50 situation against Gief? Just block it, grab him and run away.