Obviously you didn’t read closely enough. A reversal wake up throw will beat a meaty attack because of the half frame advantage for wake up animations. But against a perfect tick into normal throw, a counter reversal throw, should not automatically beat a perfect normal tick throw.
If you tick someone, then perform a throw on the first frame that they recover (a perfect tick), and they perform a reversal throw on that same frame, and both players are within throw range…the reversal throw should not win that situation 100% of the time. It should be random. Unless block or hit stun also work with half frames just like wake up animations. You need raw frame data to prove this however.
If a Zangief ticks another Zangief and goes for SPD, and the other Zangief does a reversal SPD, it is random who wins correct? Meaning that the reversal throw doesn’t always win. Are you sure that your FAQ is correct?
No. The ST engine has a bug where even a perfectly timed reversal throw will come out as a normal attack even if you have exact timing. So if your opponent is within range and you enter the exact inputs for a reversal throw you might lose to a meaty attack because of the ST engine. Remember in ST that some characters cannot use their SUPER attack as reversals. Perfectly executed reversal throws coming out as normal attacks randomly is just another finite aspect of ST.
Correct, once you are on your first frame of standing after your wake up animation, you have 13 frames where you cannot be thrown by any throw (command or normal). This 13 frame window is universal for all characters.
The fact that you’re using “half frame advantage” lets me know that you don’t know this subject as well as you think you do. This game doesn’t operate on half frames. It’s a frame or it’s not.
Again…follow me. Your character makes contact with a move that gives you frame advantage and puts me into hit/block stun. Let’s say, for the sake of example, it’s a light attack and I blocked it. I am now in block stun for 11 frames. Once the attack for your move ends, you walk forward into my throw range in an attempt to throw me. However, on frame 11 of block stun, the frame right before I come out of block stun, I now have the ability to throw you. You, however, do not because I am still considered in block stun. So, unless you jump or do a move with invincibility at this point, if I reversal throw, you get thrown. A normal throw attempt from you will not work because I’m still unthrowable at the time that I’m throwing you.
I hope that was clear. The same applies whether it’s the last frame of hit stun, the last frame of getting up from a knockdown, or the last frame of recovering from non-knockdown aerial hit-stun. (Incidentally, this topic was thoroughly fleshed out a few months ago in a thread that was made for this commonly discussed topic. Of course, it’s probably waaaaaaaay down the thread list by now.)
You have your terms confused here. You’re not describing a reversal throw at this point. You’re describing a counter throw…which is simply trying to counter a throw attempt that you know is coming…which may or may not work because you’re both throwable at that point. A reversal counter-throw will always work because the opponent is throwable and you are not…unless the opponent is either not in throw range or unthrowable themselves.
The only way that a reversal SPD doesn’t grab in this situation is if the SPD has startup frames that don’t grab. That’s the ONLY way. To my knowledge, frames 1 through 11 of the SPD will grab the opponent and take them for a ride, so there is no reason that a reversal SPD doesn’t work everytime…to my knowledge. Someone even more expert in frame data will have to confirm that for me. NKI, you out there?
Of course…any perfect system is thrown out of kilter when silly things like “bugs” and “human error” are introduced. Those are called…exceptions. Outside of those rare occasions, what I said is true and I stand by it.
I should’ve just read this twice instead of posting my wall of text.
You perfectly described what’s happening in NKI’s video about reversals on YouTube. A reversal throw has the exact same unthrowable properties as a reversal special move that has initial invincibility. The only difference, though, is that a reversal throw will grab on the same frame that it’s executed…provided…of course…that the opponent is in throw range and not trying to grab a move with invincibility. In other words…it will grab a throw attempt.
Now you are being a complete dolt. T-Akiba’s frame data lists frames at .5 for wake up animations. I didn’t say at any point that the game operates at 120fps or has true half frames in terms of the engine running the animation (but the game picks up inputs at intervals much smaller than a frame so the game does have a layer of operation that is smaller than a frame). I said that a half frame is a way of referencing the frames where reversal throws occur during wake ups and I even specifically broke it down at 60fps. It’s a way of expressing a special property of wake up animations by breaking down the frames into even smaller units (or half frames). Are you saying that T.Akiba doesn’t know this subject either? The wake up animations are listed as half frames for a reason. Get off your high horse and try reading and comprehending my posts. You just don’t know how to read. :lame:
What data do you have to support the fact that if you are in block stun for 11 frames that you can throw on the 11th frame of stun animation? This is all I want. Some hard evidence that people can throw on the last frame of stun. I know people have theorized that a reversal throw will always beat a tick throw but there isn’t a complete hard analysis of this specific scenario. And all other instances where two throws occur simultaneously, the winner is chosen randomly, meaning a perfect normal tick throw meeting a normal reversal throw will result in a random winner.
In [media=youtube]6i1TPQQ_AVA"[/media] the only option presented to escape a perfect command tick throw is a reversal ATTACK and not a throw. In your scenario a normal reversal throw can potentially beat a perfect tick throw if it is within range. If Zangief is overlapping his active grab frames across your first frame of recovery when do you have time to throw him out of his active grab frames providing you are in range for a normal throw? The only way it would be possible was if you could throw on the last frame of block or hit stun which I don’t see as being possible unless stun frames have special properties like wake up animations. Even if you are in range and you reversal throw with a normal throw, according to popular theory (I have no hard evidence for this but I’m fairly certain) the reversal throw would lose to the active grab frames of Zangief’s SPD if you tried to reversal throw out of a perfect command throw tick.
Alright…I stand corrected on the half frame thing. That’s fine. I still contend, however, that it doesn’t apply to this subject, and I explained why in my response.
It’s common knowledge that the last frame of hit/block stun, the last frame of getting up from a knockdown, and the last frame of recovering from non-knockdown aerial hit-stun is called “the reversal frame” or “the reversal window”, so, based on pure logical deduction, I can very confidently say that in that frame of animation, you can perform either a reversal throw or reversal special move and you will be able to throw your opponent before they can throw you or become unthrowable before they can throw you.
NKI told me in a private message that on standing opponents, light attacks and all jumping attacks stun for 11 frames, medium attacks stun for 16 frames, and hard attacks and stun for 21 frames. (Special moves usually stun like hard attacks, but it depends on the move in question and whether you’re blocking or getting hit.) Crouching opponents get stunned by jumping attacks as if they were standing.
I also consider NKI a rather reliable source and, unless I’ve twisted around what he said…and he’s free to tell me so, I’d tend to think that what I stated above is true. “Dolt” or not, I’ve been talking about Street Fighter for a while, too. By the way, I truly do hope that you weren’t offended because I told you that you were wrong or because I “wasted” your time responding with my opinion. Other than that, I see no reason for the immature name-calling.
Welp…I don’t have a video that points to it. I’m sure somebody out there does if it exists. I’m pretty sure we can tell, though, that throwing in World Warrior and throwing in Super Turbo are two vastly different things.
VFF, look at the example again. Why would a reversal special move be the only option presented to counter Zangief’s Spinning Pile Driver? Could it be that the SPD’s throw range dwarfs just about everything else out there? I’m just saying that would be my reasoning. It’s more likely that he’ll be ticking from outside of your throwing range, than inside it. Yes, I know it has more active throwing frames than any other move, too, but…again…how can you throw something that’s unthrowable? Again, the person in the reversal window is unthrowable, but they can throw or do a special move. It gives the person in it the chance to avoid being put into a throw loop for simply either getting hit, blocking an attack, getting knocked down, or getting hit out of the air. The only way the above is possible when it comes to a reversal throw is if a reversal throw is unthrowable. It’s a special property that doesn’t exist in World Warrior, but does exist in Champion Edition onward. (Pretty sure it started in CE, but it could just as easily be HF. Someone else can confirm.)
Think about something else…if reversal throws don’t exist, how do charge characters get out of walk-up tick throws if they’re walking forward and then suddenly block a crouching attack? They can’t charge a special move in that amount of time. Are they doomed to a 50/50 chance that they might be able to throw out of the situation? Not with reversal throws. The only thing that stops them from reversal throwing in that situation is if their opponent makes themself unthrowable, whether by stopping outside of their throw range and taking advantage of their longer throwing range or by doing a special move that’s unthrowable.
I guess we’ll know for sure when the link to a video gets posted.
You specifically said that someone can interrupt the last frame of hit or block to perform a reversal throw. If the ‘reversal window’ as you are naming it is so universal across stun and wake up, that means it would allow someone to perform a reversal attack on the last frame of block stun as well. You are implying that if someone is put in 11 frames of stun that they can cancel the 11th frame into a reversal throw or attack and reduce the stun to 10 frames. Reversal attacks and throws must come on the first frame after stun (stun and wake up are different in ST), not the last frame during stun, so you are saying that reversal throws are a special exception to this rule as reversal attacks certainly do not come out during the last frame of stun.
Yes. There you have it. Jump in and light attacks lend 11 solid frames of advantage. Yet wake up animations are expressed in units of .5 with a special note attached to them. Why is that? Maybe it is because wake up animations have a special property that block and hit stun recovery do not? Maybe that’s why wake up animations have a special reversal throw window that stun recovery animations do not?
NKI’s source is probably T.Akiba’s frame data. And you’ve been playing SF long but you didn’t even know about the special properties of wake up animations and said “you don’t know what you are talking about” when I clearly was looking at raw frame data.
Because command throws override normal throws and there is no frame or window coming out of block or hit stun that can reversal normal throw your opponent out of a perfect tick. T.Hawk players will tick and then command throw people at point blank all the time. Why don’t we see people reversal throwing T.Hawk players in ST? Maybe because if Hawk perfectly times the tick into throw a reversal throw would do nothing?
But you are saying that if Zangief is within range of a normal throw after a tick, a perfectly timed reversal throw will always beat the perfect tick SPD.
Yes. Unless they have enough charge for a reversal, a charge character must try to counter throw the tick throw. And if a charge player doesn’t have charge stored, and gets ticked, and times a reversal throw on the exact frame of the opponent’s throw, the game rolls the dice with deciding the winner. So at best without charge you have a 50/50 shot of your throw winning (if it is a reversal throw) against your opponent’s perfect normal tick throw.
Zangief can do a standing 720 with lightning input. His jump is five frames, there are more than five directional commands involved in doing a 720 once you reach an upwards direction. So within a single frame the game is registering more than one input and breaking it down into units smaller than 1/60 of a second. The game can register six directional inputs in only five frames because the engine was designed to process inputs at a rate higher than the animation. If the game didn’t read inputs at smaller units than 1/60 of a second then 720 motions would take one frame per motion (or change of directional input) and would be useless.
The game does pick up inputs at units smaller than a frame but the game only moves (in terms of animation) at speeds of 1/60 of a second so you can’t see inputs broken down smaller than 1/60 ever even though the game is detecting them. It’s tough to explain, though the animation is moving at 60fps, the engine is working at a different pace regarding picking up joystick and button inputs.
You have a one frame window to input a button for a reversal. So within that 1/60 of a second before the reversal frame you can input the button up or down command at any time during that 1/60 of a second. 1/60 (or one frame) is actually the largest window for a reversal and not the smallest. When you press the button down on the arcade board, it sends an electronic input signal to the CPS2 board (or PS3 or whatever), a signal that lasts much shorter than 1/60 of a second. The smallest increment that an input registers is actually much tinier than 1/60 of a second. However I’m sure once you input a button the game registers that input for a single frame (meaning the game won’t allow for turbo buttons at 1/120 of a second because two sequential inputs at 1/120 will overlap anyways).
This is false and NKI’s video proves it. In that video, Guile never comes out of his blocking stance…not even for half a frame, as you would suggest. He goes directly into the special move. He also does the same thing for reversal throws.
I can see now why you would think this is a valid point to keep bringing up. I just looked at that section of the frame data and, apparently, during that last half a frame, a meaty attack won’t connect, but the person getting up can actually do stuff. My question, though, is…if the person can perform actions without their hitbox being present…can’t they throw during that time, too? Aren’t they, in fact, able to throw before they can be thrown?
So, even with that bit of information, which I will openly and freely admit that I did not know and you did and proves that I came into this argument assuming too much of my own knowledge, it still serves to prove that you can throw someone before they can throw you because you’re unthrowable.
We reeeeeeally need video proof of this at this point.
Touche, VFF, touche. I’ll give you virtual dap, too.
…or Hawk could be ticking from outside of his throw range. I’m still saying that there’s no way a command throw can throw someone that’s in an unthrowable state, which is what the reversal frame is. We’ll never agree until we see a video.
If that’s true, then what you’ve described is a badly designed game mechanic skewed against charge characters. Charge characters should be absolute tick-throw fodder if they think about walking forward. I seriously doubt this is true. They would have to be able to reversal throw with the rest of the cast to compensate for not always being able to escape tick throws.
vf4, the wakeup animation length being xx.5 does not mean it the duration is xx and a half frame. It is only a notation to clarify something, there is no real half frame of anything.
It’s written like that to make clear that on frame xx the rising opponent can start doing stuff (like jump as written on the site) but cannot be hit untill frame xx+1. So depending on the perspective you’re looking at the wakeup data from, it is either xx frames long, or xx+1 frames long. hence xx.5 is used to describe it from both perspectives.
It registers multiple inputs per frame. It captures the entire state of the joystick every frame. If you were to hold down+back. That would register as both down and back. So Zangief only needs to hit the 4 corners in order to get a 360 motion. Also if you execute a special move too fast in this game it sometimes doesn’t come out.
I can almost guarantee the game does not process inputs faster than 1/60s. (I’d be able to prove it by looking at the code.)
Anyway, I believe Fulaani is correct. And until I’m proven wrong with empirical evidence I’m not changing my opinion.
Would it be possible to have sirlin or someone else with the know how to look at how the Throw ranges were changed on a pixel level for the characters that had their range changed ?
