3121

The way I see it is this. Everyone can have their preferred playstyle and approach but when you are using a low tier character you cannot afford to overlook anything that could aide you. Every move, every setup has its place/use. If you ignore them you are only limiting your own options and potential mixups. Resetting with cl. hk for the first time in 10 matches against someone could be enough to throw them off their game and win you the round. While they are sitting there wondering why you did a reset with no real benefit you can be continuing your mixup while their guard is down due to the choice of reset mindfuck.

3122

What characters are you talking about? Most reversals do 100-150 dmg, with the exception of ultras or FADC into ultra.

  1. Will they always have 2 bars to burn everytime you do a reset? With some characters, they have to burn 3 bars to have a safe reversal (eg: Rufus). 2-3 bars can be costly for many characters, and burning it against a simple reset which they can apparently “block and react to offline”? Sounds like you’re attacking your own statements.
  2. They are not perfectly safe if you are baiting properly. By this I mean walking or backdashing to make their reversal completely whiff. Can’t FADC it then. If you’re baiting a reversal, nobody says you have to be point blank range to do so.

Barely in our favor? Maybe against grapplers, but I think your opponents are simply reading you like a book. Either that or you’re not baiting properly.

Have you ever seen high level Seth mixups? Like Poongko for example. He does dp FADC Yosokyaku (air step kicks) almost every chance he gets for the reset and the walk under mixup. Do you mean to tell me that this mixup only works on scrubs?

I don’t think you understand the timing here. Unless you land before your opponent wakes up to do your cr.LK, you’re going to get beaten by option select throw everytime unless your opponent’s timing is off.

No, your cr.LK crouch tech is not going to work because your opponent hasn’t throw you yet, he/she is in the startup frames of the throw, then your cr.LK starts up, then their throw becomes active and you get thrown. It’ll only work if your opponent’s timing is so perfect that they start the throw 3-4 frames before you land and then it becomes active when you do your cr.LK crouch tech.

Not to mention doing these empty jump tricks has the possilbity of netting you a reversal dp to the face, which you were previously so adamant on avoiding. And this time no walk back or backdash can make their dp whiff.

Fraction of a second differences in timing: you mean like 1frame links? Or do you mean your opponent is trying to react to your jumpin of choice? It has nothing to do with how Sakura will land, since nothing she can do will change her landing timing. eg: she doesn’t have a dive kick. Slightly off topic but I kind of wish she did have a dive kick again, like back in CvS2 lol.

Pros: the cl.st.HK reset can be new, unexpected, and leaves you at a different positioning and advantage compared to other resets.
Cons: ?

How so?

It’s not that I think that resets are a focal point of Sakura’s offense. I just think that it’s foolish to cast aside your options just because you think resets are some sort of shenanigan.

I still don’t understand this. What do you guys mean by “consistent” and “solid”? Do you mean always safe jump into frame traps and tick throw setups? Do you mean completely erasing reset mixups from your gameplay? Do you mean making your intentions completely obvious or never resorting to “random” reversals?

3123

so following up ex-shunpu with st.roundhouse is unexpected, and you can use it once per opponent you meet, and that alone makes it a valid tactic? fine, you’re right…it’s viable. it’s just as viable as wake-up ultra, wake-up shoryu with no meter, random hurricane kick, fireball to start a round and walk-up throw to start a round. all of those things are also unexpected and can hit, just like anything else in the game. my thing is, it’s not about whether it will hit or not, it’s about what you’re willing to sacrifice in order to get that hit. you’re recovering from an animation after the hit that leave you both practically even when your opponent lands. so now you’ve got nothing except walk-up throw or hope they reversal’d. that’s it. if they do nothing, you’re not in a position to press, because they’ve fully recovered, and it ends up being a staring contest. why? because you wanted to gamble your hard-earned pressure on a friggin’ standing roundhouse because it would be a ‘nice surprise that might work once in 10 fights’.

who said i cast it aside? i even stated that in a previous sentence that i still use resets. you’re taking things out of context just to prove a counter argument to an argument i never made. sweet jesus.

watch john choi play ryu. that’s what i mean. i know you know what that means, because from your posts, you posses reading comprehension and it’s solid, it’s fundamental, and it’s not gimmicky in any way whatsoever. it’s based on calculated spacing, zoning and footsies. yeah, yeah, they’re two different characters, but it doesn’t mean she isn’t capable of such play. how many resets do you see uryo going for? i see hit-confirms, zoning and valuing of position. acting like you don’t know what it means to play consistently and solidly is a stretch and even you know that. i can reset someone multiple times, but honestly, it brings me little satisfaction because it just means that i just fought someone who lives in a cave and doesn’t know which way to block on one of the most transparent resets in the game. like i said, i’m not entirely against them, so i know this isn’t a pro/con of the reset…i think we just have different opinions on which ones are actually useful.

3124

I don’t know if that Seth analogy really fits here. Seth’s DP has the most invincibility frames and he’s got a command throw. In Seth’s situation he can punish your block, mash out, backdash, or delayed crouch tech. Seth’s options are way more versatile compared to what Sakura has. High risk/reward, but heavily in Seth’s favor.

I think what RetroKid is saying with “consistently and solidly” is the popular Sakura mixups are too much of a wild card. As far as I can tell, here are the risks/rewards.

Rewards: Possible 60-80% damage off 1 combo and reset. Stun. Momentum.

Risks: Reversal into potentially 40-50% damage. Loss of momentum.

Assuming High Level Play
Losing momentum with Sakura is pretty bad. She doesn’t have a great reversal; She has to guess and with a little luck, you can take back the momentum/round.

I think we can all agree resets are high risk, high reward. In many situations the risk vs the reward is just not worth it. If the situation favors you (meter, opponent’s thought process is predictable, or you can hear/react to the opponents stick sounds), go for it.

3125

Everything is a valid tactic. Whether or not the community frowns on certain tactics, such as wake up ultra, has nothing to do with the validity of it or not. If you expect your opponent to push buttons, then wake up shoryu (see Daigo) without meter is a fine option. If you expect your opponent to throw a fireball, then a hurricane kick is also a fine option. It’s not about being unexpected and hoping you get a hit, it’s about reading your opponent and basing your actions on those reads.

If they do nothing, then you should have thrown them. It was an unfortunate misread on your part, a good read on your opponent’s part, and you should add this information to influence how you play for the rest of the match(es).

Gambled your hard earned pressure on a cl.st.HK? You make it sound like the j.HP/j.MK crossup mixup is guaranteed damage. If that fails, what do you have left? Frame trap and tick throw setups? How would this be any different from a cl.st.HK reset?

Let’s say your opponent does FA backdash against your jumpin. What do you do? Do you play it safe and walk back, letting your opponent regen? Or do you push buttons to continue pressure and to prevent your opponent from regening, but with the risk of eating a reversal?

Well you were pretty outspoken against using resets, making it sound like if you get reversaled you instantly lose the game.

My question was to see what you and other people thought about what “consistent” and “solid” means. Not that I don’t know what fighting game fundamentals are.

The way I view “consistent” is being able to win ft5’s as much as you win ft2’s, being able to place the same in tournaments regularly, etc. “Solid” for me means that you win your games with good reads, good offense, good defense, and not because you took a wild guess (eg: random ultra) to net the win. In other words, you won because you outsmarted and outplayed your opponent, and you can do it again and again and again.

I view footsies/zoning/spacing as different from playing “consistent” or “solid”. If you ignore midrange footsies, are you instantly playing any more unsolid than a Chun spamming st.MP? If you’re playing against an Akuma who can make it difficult if not impossible to stay spaced due to his fast walk speed, are you suddenly not playing consistently? Maybe this is too much of a tangent but it seems everybody has their own views of what “high level consistent solid play” means and what it should look like.

Resets happen ALL the time in tournaments, and especially with high level players. Do you mean they’re only falling for the reset mixup because they’ve never seen it before? Uryo not using resets is due to his playstyle imo, not the uselessness of Sakura’s resets.

3126

anything can be defended and anything can be punished. The whole point is that one of sakura’s options is harder to defend against, and harder to reversal. That’s why you should go for untechable knockdown -> mixup instead of a reset in 99% of situations

I really cannot understand why you guys don’t get it. People did resets back when j.mk did not cross up. That changed in ssf4. Now that sakura has an ambiguous jumpin, and you should rarely ever do resets. Why do a reset into 50/50 when you could do a jump-in 50/50 that is harder to defend and harder to reversal punish? (there’s only a few exceptions where some characters are dangerous to jump at)

Resets are an old sakura gimmick that people can now defend on reaction. Of course everything has “uses.” you can say that whiffing a shouken in front of your opponent has “situational” uses if you wanna be stubborn. that doesn’t mean that you should do it often (if at all)

3127

  1. That’s your opinion and I weaspect dat. However, resets are part of Sakura’s game, and other reset characters, Abel, Guy etc. If you’re consistently getting blown up for resets then you’re not not being ambiguous enough or are being too obvious/overusing it.
    Sometimes, I don’t even know which side I’ll be on after a reset. Even jab reset can fool many people depending on when and how many times you dash. If someone’s reversing, bait them. You don’t have to always pressure after a reset; let them guess a bit.

  2. I’ve fought plenty of players who’s defense is rock solid and I mean rock solid. If you’re going for an ambiguous jump in, that can be auto correct dp’d. If you’re going to safe jump/OS or frame trap, good players will set there and block. The key is variation. There’s no answer to cover every attack so mixing things up works to your advantage. If I ex shunpu two/three times and go for knockdown (hard or soft) each time, the third/fourth time (even if you know I can reset) you will be looking for the already established pattern. It’s far more likely that you’ll fail to identify which reset I’m doing and react in time. Or maybe you’ll lash out with a reversal dp. Either way, if I condition/read my opponent CORRECTLY, a correct guess/read will net me huge damage/stun. That, IMO, is the essence of the game; I don’t think you can win consistently by playing completely safe.

  3. Sakura’s resets were not a result of the lack of xup mk; I don’t know where you got that information/impression from. They were an easy way to get, relatively, free and massive damage. Xup mk and mixups are separate issues.

Shutting out a useful tool because someone MAY reversal doesn’t compute for me. My opponent will be betting his health on a guess/read just like me.
I don’t care if resets are a gimmick. I don’t care if shou fadc cl.hp is a hard link (or that lk shunpu, cr. hp is a harder link :sweat:). I have nothing to prove; no honor to uphold. I want to WIN and am prepared to use every dirt cheap, scumbag tactic/gimmick I can find. :karate:

3128

that’s what I’m saying though. if you want to win more often, then stop doing resets and go for the safer mixup (that is also harder to block and harder to punish). You don’t become a good player by flipping a coin and doing 50/50 resets where your opponent can easily punish you for the same damage that you can give them. you learn to play solid and do mixups where even if your opponent guesses correctly, they will still have a hard time punishing you

and no, it’s not easy to just “auto correct” DP sakura’s ambiguous jumpin. first of all, you can’t autocorrect if sakura jumps properly. you have to do a non-reversal non-autocorrect dp with 1-2 frame timing in order to land the DP, it’s really hard and you can watch examples of people like tokido, daigo, etc failing to do it on youtube

there’s really no good options for your opponent except to guess and block. once you start your block string, then yes you could get reversal’ed, but that’s the same as any reset. The initial 50/50 mixup is basically safe though, and that’s already a very good reason to do it

3129

I understand your examples but I don’t understand your argument. You are asking Sakura players to cut out using resets and go for knowdowns 99% of the time. Just because thats what you see Uryo do. Uryo isn’t the only top Sakura. He is probably just the most famous one and his fame came from using Viper anyway. He just happened to also become a great Sakura player but I haven’t heard of him using her in any tournaments and winning yet. I’ve seen plenty of other Sakura players on the Japanese leaderboard for SSF4 on PSN and XBL. 5-6k PP Sakura players just like Uryo. I’ve watched a few replays and not everyone plays the same as Uryo. Just like not every Akuma player plays like Tokido. Not every Ryu plays like Daigo.

None of us know for sure why Uryo hardly uses resets. Who can ask him?
I do know that I have seen Tokido throw in some resets here and there on his BnB instead of always going for the sweep or dp. I have heard him say on an interview on 0xkeNzo’s channel (with translation) that he thinks it is best to go for hardknockdown (sweep ender) for the best options. But he still uses resets sometimes does he not?

Your ambiguous jump in is just as 50/50 as most of the resets. What’s 50/50 about the resets though are what side you choose to end up on. There are far more options available to you after that. As others have mentioned you have stuff like block, backdash, jump, throw, overhead, xup etc. You make out as if your only options are c.hp or c.lk after a reset.

With your ambigious jump in you are presenting us with only two options; both of which are attack options. j.mk to hit xup or j.hp to hit high at the front. This is true 50/50 if you are committing to hitting them high. Its still a guessing game it just has less options for both players involved. Due to their being less options the outcome is more predictable and the action is more predictable. However, if they guess correctly and block your attack then when you land you will be in the exact same position that you would be in after a reset.

As Mingo said before I think its better to try to read your opponent. If you can read your opponent then you can do whatever you want if you think it will counter whatever they choose to do or choose not to do.

I could reset someone and go straight into ultra and people would call it random. It might be random if its the first round I’ve played the person but if I have noticed after a few rounds that they always try to throw in similar situations then why not anticipate that and punish with an ultra?

To be safe you have to be predictable to an extent. You limit yourself by being safe 100% of the time though.

If your opponent predicts that you are always going to play safe then they will adjust to that and its going to make it harder for you to win if they are on the same level as you or higher. They know you won’t ex shou unless you have 3 meters so you can save yourself if its blocked. Or they know you never use ex shou because you never reversal you only save for super. It all gets predictable.

Using shenanigans and resets only all the time can also be predictable. Thats why we should mix up our actions based on the character we are up against and the playstyle of the opponent and not lean too heavily one way or the other (unless its part of your ruse).

We need to try to predict the opponent while remaining unpredictable ourselves where we can help it. Trying to convince players to leave out the resets isn’t going to help anybody.

3130

I’m getting a bit of annoying hate from other people towards Sakura.

They say that she gets one lucky guess which nets her 400+ damage, which is true but it’s sad that no one realizes how much work she has to put in compared to other characters.

3131

Comn dude, you can’t compare akuma’s resets to sakura’s resets they are 210% different. akuma’s reset comes really fast and can come out at multiple points in a combo, making it hard to predict when it will happen. also, akuma has a safe 3 frame dp -> fadc and tons of demon setup traps, al lof which make his resets deadly. akuma’s reset options are way better than what sakura has, and like you said yourself, tokido still rarely does them (because his vortex options are just plain better)

sakura on the other hand does not have shit after a reset. here is what you can do as sakura

  1. bait
  • her backdash/jump/block can all be punished by most top tier chars
  1. throw
  • loses to reverals, leads to huge punish from many top tiers
  1. meaty attack
  • loses to reverals, leads to huge punish from many top tiers

Compare that to other characters with resets that are actually good, like say abel, akuma, seth, etc. Sakura’s options are just a joke

Yes, of course, for the sake of argument, of course there are times where you can do resets. There are also times where you can do a random ex-shouken against a blocking opponent, that doesn’t mean that you should do it often. I’m not saying you should never do it, but I am saying that going for an untechable knockdown for position (or for a 50/50 jumpin mixup) is generally safer and better against top players

3132

lol are you serious? Akuma’s demon flip has 30 frame startup. That’s half a second to react! Don’t tell me you have the reactions of a cow. If it was a lk.hazanshou (23 frame startup) then maybe, or an EX air jaguar kick (15 frame startup) then probably. But for reference, many top players can easily react to such things offline.

But regardless, it’s not about how fast it starts up, it’s about your opponent not expecting it. If a good player is expecting a demon flip reset, I doubt the reset will work unless it happens really really fast.

You make it sound like dp fadc guarantees a gdlk pressure game. First of all, how the hell do you have so much meter in the first place while your opponent has none? Second, using dp fadc offensively is typically a waste because you can usually accomplish the same goal with frame traps. Unless you are really feeling yourself and you want to counter their reversal with your own dp, or you have a dp fadc ultra (which Akuma does not have), or in rare situations where you are close to dizzying your opponent.

Such as ?

  1. How do top tier characters punish your bait? You’re outside their throw range and you’re blocking, I don’t understand how you can get “punished” here.
    2/3. What are you defining as a “huge punish”?

Again you make it sound like if my opponent has a reversal, my reset automatically gets shut down. Again, this is a mindgame. If they choose to mash out that dp, I’m going to punish with a tatsu loop combo for huge dmg/stun if not dizzy. Is the 150dmg dp reversal really worth the risk of 349dmg and 519stun? (cl.st.HP , lk.tatsu , cr.HP xx EX tatsu , j.HK) or a whopping 500+ dmg if you decide to go into ultra? In the long run, assuming your reads are 50/50 on their reversal tendacies, you’re dishing out more tons more damage and stun than they would on you.

There’s reasons why top players respect their opponents most of the time instead of challenge their safe jump, challenge their mixup, challenge their pressure game, etc. You have to be 100% sure of yourself otherwise you’re going to lose a ton of health.

Abel’s resets at best leads to TT into another mixup, or a meaty combo mixup where has to do difficult links just for a hitconfirm, otherwise he’s gambling frame advantage with cr.HP or CoD, not to mention his hitconfirm combo would be scaled while it’s easy to just use clst.HP xx lk.tatsu as your hitconfirm and go from there.

Don’t forget Seth is a glass cannon. You’re the one so worried about reversals, right? His case is a bit more extreme. One bad read on Seth’s part and he’s going to die. One good read on his part and he stuns his opponent.

3133

do you even know what we are talking about? nobody mentioned demon flip we’re talking about akuma resets, they’re totally different.

an example of an akuma reset is bnb -> tatsu -> reset. after this, he can do a ton of things that sakura cannot do. for example, instant neutral jump ex-air hadoken that can hit confirm into a combo, or dp-> fadc, or hk-> demon cancel, or a billion other things. on top of that, he has all the options that sakura has like meaty/throw/etc setups. even with such good odds you rarely see good players doing resets because its a gimmick that can be punished hard if you guess wrong. akuma’s vortex is much safer so good players do it more often

anyway I’m done talking about this subject, a lot of the stuff you’re saying is just plain wrong but I’m not going to sit here and quote every mistake. it’s pretty clear that you want to keep doing resets and avoid otoshi/sweep setups so I guess can’t stop you

3134

I don’t think your argument is wrong. Playing without resets is a viable strategy. However, a reset once in a while doesn’t hurt that much considering the stun/damage potential. I just don’t think ignoring them COMPLETELY makes sense.

I’m very interested in seeing how you play. Winning consistently without resets and HP shou FADC means you must be doing something very right. Maybe I can pick up a thing or two. :karate:

3135

I keep doing cr.mk xx HK tatsu for pressure but it keeps whiffing >.<, need to drop that habit

3136

I understand exactly what you mean. When Sabre first showed everyone the resetshe can do, after a while people found ways to counter them quickly. Jawang, you and I think similar on this subject. I do a reset every once in a while. One reason I do this is because it is harder to get in with Sakura then with most characters. Because of that, I try to do the most damage I can when I hit someone (normally 400+ when I have ex meter). If I do think about doing Knockdown or a reset, I rather go with the knockdown. That why depending on what character I’m facing, I know what they are going to do on wakeup (ex. Ryu:DP, EX DP etc.) I wouldnt want to risk a reset when her health isnt that great, and most GOOD players will know whats coming when you do a ex tatsu and try to reset. Because she has almost no recovery after her charged fireball (Im talking about AE now.) I dont see why you wouldnt go for a knockdown after an ex. tatsu. No one will be quick enough to counter it if performed right. They have to take the chip or get hit. No Ex DP or anything I can think of will catch her.

Plus her damage is huge in AE. Sakura didnt get any buffs in Super if you ask me. I dont see one outside otoshi untechable knockdown (correct me if am wrong). But with her damage being so high and some characters losing options in the game, I believe that she is A-/B+/

3137

While I was still playing this game, I never bothered doing resets with Sakura at all.

3138

I… made some “improvements” to Sakura (by improving, mean completely overhauling her). Instead of hadokens and tatsumakis, she’s become a grappler.

[media=youtube]Du0OgAiwkP8[/media]

3139

LOOOOL well nice one but she could be better in changes and be more like cvs2 anyway, your sakura is to damn fast LOL. Nether less good jog I bet it takes a lot of work to do that.

3140

^^ Some pics:

http://i.imgur.com/7hhsv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/DPQyD.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/BFR1U.jpg