1581

R.I.P. George, you are missed.

I understand what Sirlin was thinking. I’m proposing as a possible nerf to remove the SGS/Demon and air fireball, and give him an Air Fireball super. You could even have his bar fill up stupidly fast from special moves.

1582

I mean the bug that makes it unescapable after an air fireball. Bad wording on my part.

1583

Thanks. Yeah, that was the intention: leaving the move as is but just making it smarter to use. I’ve come up with similar types of “nerfs” to a bunch of moves in SFIV that I wish were implemented, but sadly I have no way to influence anyone from Japan with those ideas. :slight_smile:

Making the first two hitting frames of the Strong Headbutt erase fireballs won’t help him much. Players will easily learn to throw the fireball so it ends up right in front of Honda when he gets up, so it won’t really be any different. It might help him to do a Strong Headbutt at the last second, but then the Fireball is erased, letting Ryu/Ken throw another one anyhow (at same timing if Honda blocked it, pretty much), which means Honda will just fly into the next Fireball.

Also, I’ve never been a fan of giving Honda ways to destroy Fireballs with the Headbutt. I like that the Jab one is easily baitable and easily punishable, but still useful if used in smart places. I would prefer having other moves of his balanced AROUND the Jab Headbutt. For example, if you are NOT in the middle of Block Stun, Ryus and Kens are warier of throwing Fireballs because if you Headbutt at the same time, you erase it and recover while Ryu/Ken can’t get up to you. So what you’ve done, essentially, is created a situation where you’ve given Ryu/Ken a reason to PAUSE and not Throw the Fireball. They’d rather fake you into Jab Headbutting and punishing it on whiff.

So that’s why I suggested giving him the Strong Headbutt that travels as fast as the Fierce one and stops at the same distance as the Jab one (do people use it’s medium traveling distance ever? Would it hurt to lose that?). That way, if you cause Ryu and Ken to pause, you can throw this out real quick and gain a half-screen’s distance on Ryu/Ken at the sacrifice of your charge. But at least you are there now. Plus, if it just behaves similarly to the Fierce Headbutt, that means at closer range, the range that Honda destroys non-Fireball characters, then Honda doesn’t behave any differently than he did before, meaning this change doesn’t hurt the characters he already defeats.

Maybe to make this sort of move more fair, I’d make it not make a sound when he does it or he makes a different grunt when he does it. So good players could react to Honda saying “Dosukoi!” to DP the Fierce headbutt, otherwise trying to quickly punish Honda if they don’t hear anything.

You’d be surprised at how big of a difference that makes. The red box goes above Akuma’s head (whereas Ken’s is level to the blue box at his head) and look how much farther the red box sticks out from his foot compared to Ken’s. It may not look a lot, but that’s the trickiest thing with hit boxes: that much can really make a difference. Look at Cammy: just shaving one or two pixels off her Jumping Strong made it so she couldn’t hit Dhalsim’s slide from Jumping anymore.

  • James
1584

What a horrible idea for Claw.

Why is this needed ?

1585

Think of this:

What if we gave Cammy an instantly hitting Dive Kick off the hooligan Throw activated by Kick. So if I go for the Hooligan Throw and hit Kick to Throw, if I’m in range, it grabs, but if I’m out of range, she Dive Kicks right away with minimal recovery if Dive Kick is blocked. It’s just too convenient of a one-option-covers-everything type situation.

Guy was like that in Alpha 1 with the Bushin Throw. The only thing that made him fair in Alpha 2 and 3 was his inability to grab crouching characters. But in Alpha 1, where it did grab crouching characters, Guy was basically the top character in the game outside of Akuma… and even that was debatable who was better. And it was largely due to the fact that the Bushin Grab grabbed too easily, and even if you mistimed it, you weren’t punishable for it (Guy would get Elbow, you’d block, he’d go into Chain Combo into Bushin Throw again and grab you again).

I just prefer having situations where you have to go for one option or the other, as opposed to having one thing cover both. I know there are tons of option selects in multiple SF games, but those require a bit of creativity and skill, whereas hitting a button and having it throw or attack for you seems a bit too convenient.

  • James
1586

You mean like all normal throws ?

And please.

Don’t use the “If x character had y” argument.
You are above that.

But i have to ask you seriously feel Walldives are still too powerful ?
Because it just sounds like nerfing for the sake of nerfing.

1587

I gotta agree with Shari on this. If Claw has to choose whether he uses punch to strike or kick to throw, I think Claw players will rarely use the throw option. I mean, if I was a Claw player, I’d rather have a guaranteed strike rather than a hit or miss throw. It’s pretty tough to time a throw with the Wall Dive, once Claw is off that wall, he’s moving incredibly fast, add to that a moving, opponent who is trying to attack you, and I think the throw will get stuffed a lot, making it pretty useless as an option.

Also, I have a tougher time reacting to Cammy’s Hooligan than I do Claw’s Wall Dive. And that’s cuz Cammy doesn’t go off the wall first, giving the opponent more time to react. The reason Claw’s Wall Dive is good is due to its steerability and speed. What I’m trying to say is, the throw part of the Wall Dive doesn’t give me problems, it’s the crossup and the re-crossup on meaties that is tough to deal with. But it’s fine the way it is now. I would even suggest that if this change were to be implemented (punch to strike and kick to throw) then Claw should be able to knock down again same as ST. It just seems like an unnecessary nerf and a step in the wrong direction IMO.

But, the game is never gonna get rebalanced, so what am I posting for? :wtf::rofl:

1588

Ye like i said before.

This is just a glorified wishlist thread at best.

But people seem to really like it so whatever.

1589

Not quite. Normal Throws don’t grab people off the ground AND out of the air. Normal Moves that come out as a result of whiffing a Throw have no ability to cross-up the opponent. And most Normal Throws that result from coming out from missing a Throw do not have a huge range that do chip damage. So no, it’s nothing like a Normal Throw.

It’s simply just too many options off of one button press. Stab from either side, or maybe accidentally get a Throw if they tried something else like Jump away. And the Throw grabs on first frame, so even if you were planning on Stabbing the opponent, and they Jumped, sometimes you end up Throwing them and beating their Jump attacks just by hitting the same button you were already prepared to hit with the intent of stabbing.

I’m glad you think so. I appreciate it. :slight_smile: But regardless, it’s still a valid argument mostly because, the majority of the time people don’t seem to understand how a move works from the opponent’s standpoint. Silly, but true. I know you are smarter than most, but doesn’t mean that it’s still not a valid point. People in the Cammy Forums of SFIV bitch about wanting her Dive Kick to be an overhead, and I always tell them how ridiculous they are. They don’t think it’d be broken, so I have to say, “Make Rufus’s Dive Kick an Overhead.” And then people start to understand more. So it’s a normal and valid argumentative point to be made.

No, not powerful, too SIMPLE. Well, still, in a way, the Wall Dive is too powerful, so what I’d like to do is nerf it without actually nerfing it. Frankly, if you are a better player than the opponent, NONE of the properties of the Wall Dive have changed with this change. Your tactics will still work, you’ll still throw people when you planned to and aim properly, you’ll still stab people when you planned to and aimed properly. So technically speaking, if you are a good Vega, you’ve lost absolutely nothing.

However, if your opponent outhinks YOU, they will beat your move. If they predict you are going to stab and they jump up to meet you and kick you, hitting stab may have your move come out too slow and you’ll get kicked instead of accidentally throwing people because it grabs on frame 1. And if they predict you are going to Throw, they can do something like Flash Kick you and, even if you make it behind Guile, your Throw would whiff INSTEAD of stabbing Guile from behind because Guile was invincible during your Throw attempt, so instead of the Throw, Vega ends up with the stab coming out in time to stab Guile from behind. Add to that, if they didn’t Flash Kick, you WOULD have Thrown them.

But again, with that kind of change, you never actually nerfed anything. Veg awill still do everything you intended for him to do. You just don’t get any accidental benefits for stuff you DIDN’T mean to do. So in my opinion, it’s not really a nerf. If you are good with Vega, you’ll never notice. But if your opponent outplays you, at least they can benefit from having consistent ways to punish you.

  • James
1590

Well, Shari, at least you could still piano :k::p: if you’re close and option select that way…until Claw gets a air-throw whiff. :smiley:

1591

Actually they do.

Chun has an attack a throw and an air throw on the same button.
Is this also to little thinking involved ?

And i really don’t understand your reasoning of how that is not a nerf ?

In that case we could do the exact same thing to all normal throws and air throws and make them require two buttons 3rd strike style.
Since it’s not a nerf.
It’s adding thinking to it.

I really don’t understand your thinking here.
Once again you seem to simply want to nerf Vega for the sake of nerfing him.

Why is this needed again ?
If you have a problem with throws being one button you have a problem with a basic fundamental of SF2.

1592

I would be strongly against the separation of Claw’s dive properties. That would make the chances of a dive hitting at 50/50 or lower, and good players can already counter it with wake-ups and reversals. Heck, Cvital just did a st. jab with Dhalsim to stop it when I played him. Personally I think Vega would drop in tier if he had this.

1593

Again, you aren’t addressing the point that the Wall Dive also causes chip damage, has intense range, can be guided in the air, can stab on either side of the opponent, etc. It’s a very potent move that has built-in option select.

Well, in the idea that if the opponent out guesses you, they actually win instead of you accidentally winning anyhow, sure, it’s a nerf. But that seems awfully fair, doesn’t it? Am I wrong in assuming we should be rewarded when we guess right against such a potent move?

But again, if you are playing Vega and outguessing your opponent, you’ll never have it happen.

(Also, OJ, my suggestion INCLUDED giving it a whiff – though with very little delay – for the sole purpose of not allowing him to option select it.)

Well, to be fair, I AM one of the people that do appreciate the command throws more than the way it works in ST, even though I’m OG at heart. I do prefer the concept of being able to punish Throws by baiting them and punishing the whiff.

Again, with normal Throws and Air Throws, it’s not as big of a deal. I’m hoping you can see the difference in something that can be guided, used to cross-up, cause chip damage relatively safely, has a lot of priority, is really fast, can attack people clear across the screen, and throw them out of the air OR off the ground compared to a normal Throw. That’s all I’m trying to get at. If you don’t see it as much of a problem, then we will just have to agree to disagree, which I’m perfectly okay with. 'Cause I honestly don’t think your argument is wrong. I just don’t think we see it the same way.

  • James
1594

Yes it’s not the same as a normal throw or airthrow but that’s why it’s so strong.
That’s a result of the various abilities it has combined not just the option select alone.

And it’s also a defining part of Vega.

For comparison since it’s not really removing anything from Vega if we exclude your want of a throw whiff it is merely adding another layer of complexity for the Vega player and makes them think more can i assume you would also want this for SF4 Vega ?

Since it’s only a matter of an execution change that removes an option select.

There is nothing wrong with the option select portion that is just a basic part of SF2.

I think the real problem you have with the move is the overall move itself.
Rather than there being too little thinking involved in the option select.

1595

Aw man…I missed that detail. I shouldve figured you wouldn’t miss that, James. That’s what I get for reading this on my Blackberry. :slight_smile:

1596

Much as it kills me, i have to agree with shari on this, and believe me, i HATE the fucking walldive, probably more than any of the spammable stuff in the game. I really don’t like option selects at all, because i think anything you do in a match should be by conscious decision, but i just think this would be too much of a nerf to claw’s game.

I have a different sugggestion with the same end goal though:

Like i said i hate option selects. This claw issue is the same beef that i have with charge characters like guile who can execute air throws by hitting a button while holding down+back in the air to keep both their horizontal and vertical charges. 99.9% of airthrows i see happening in matches look like they happened by accident while going for a mid air kick or punch, and in a way claw’s walldive is the same. With the exception of honda’s stored ochio, holding down + back and hitting punch doesn’t work to do a throw on the ground, why should it work in the air? Air throws should be possible while holding back or forward ONLY, like regular ground throws, this would make them less option selects and more deliberate attacking choices, with an element of risk for characters like claw who have to sacrifice their down charge in the air if they want to do one.

As a bison player, i’ve lost count of the number of times i’ve been hit with a backbreaker air throw by guile just because my opponent threw a sonic boom, then jumped backwards hoping to mid air kick me out of a well predicted headstomp while simultaneously holding down+back to build both of his charges. As bison, getting kicked out of the air is not good, but it’s not terrible, but If i happen to be anywhere near guile in the air he gets a backbreaker completely without trying at no extra risk, and gets double the damage. Meanwhile, i get floored in a really dangerous position that puts me on the wrong end of a wakeup mixup or a tick throw setup (or in claw’s case, another “anybody’s guess” walldive).

Air throws generally should happen on purpose, not by accident. Because of the damage and very favourable positioning you generally get from them, charge characters should have to give up their down charge and make a conscious decision that they want to air throw in order to do one, and the command for them should also be on ONE button only, instead of on multiple buttons like many characters can do.

In relation to claw, this would fix the accidental grab issue without going to the extreme of nerfing it to 2 separate buttons. In order to air grab from a walldive he would have to give up his down charge and thus risk breaking his brainless walldive loop if he messes up the grab, just so there’s an element of risk to such a powerful move. He could be charging both charges as normal in mid air, but if he saw an opportunity to grab, like if the opponent was asleep or just stand blocking or whatever, he would have to make a conscious choice to drop his down charge, go for a grab, and then immediately start building charge again for his next dive while the throw/wakeup animation was going on.

Just for the sake of interesting discussion? I love a good argument. :wgrin:

Besides, sometimes it’s good to let capcom etc. know about the possibilities they missed while putting a game together. Boards like SRK are what give them feedback and new ideas, and even if we may never see any changes in HDR because of threads like this, it’s good to put this stuff out there for them to think about in future titles.

1597

Certainly, if Cammy was forced to go to the wall first. I think that’s a fair amount of notice given. I feel it’s better to reward spacing and knowledge on defense than to reward fast reactions. So if you thought Cammy-claw in ST was 6-4 in Cammy’s favor (I’d say it’s more 5.5-4.5 in claw’s favor), then what do you think it is in HDR? 6.5-3.5? 7-3?

I’m actually glad Sirlin took his own course on this point and didn’t dummy down anything further. This wouldn’t be a huge nerf though because like blitzfu said, everyone would be using the normal dive unless they saw an obvious missed opportunity to izuna drop.

1598

Yeah, that’s true. It is a defining part of him, and that would probably be the #1 reason why I wouldn’t change it. For sure, the weaknesses of the move are the fact that it requires charge and needs to jump to the wall first, so it may warrant the buffness it has.

That is a very safe assumption.

Nah, it’s more the option select. The main reason why I dislike it IS the accidental grabs or the missed grabs that turn into safe chip damage hits, sometimes that results in knock-downs (air to air) or cross-ups. I like how the move is right now (in HDR with the lack of knock-down) compared to all future versions where the move is nigh useless and I’d prefer not changing the properties of the move. I’d just change how to do it so that happy accidents don’t happen (and in the case of the Wall-Dive, there are almost NO sad accidents).

No, actually, I feel like the fight got harder in HDR. Before, I could shut down Vega’s Wall Dive game completely. He basically was not allowed to go to the wall at all. The Fake Wall Dive throws that off, so he actually gets his Wall Dive game back against Cammy. That was the main reason for me believing Cammy had a slight advantage, because she shut down an entire facet of his game plan.

I’m not sure, the Izuna Drop gives Vega MUCH larger rewards. I personally would have probably went after Izuna Drops more than stabs because they can’t block it, it has huge throw range, and leaves the opponent in a hugely disadvantageous position. I would save the stabs for countering attempts to counter the Izuna Drop.

  • James
1599

The happy accidents are just a part of having a one button throw system like SF2 does.

Same thing occurs with Normal Throws and especially Air Throws.

The main difference is chip damage.

Would you also want Airthrows to have a separate command ?

Izuna and the pounce being the same button is a big part of it’s strength.
It means you have to always answer it.
Whereas if Vega had to decide if they want the pounce or Izuna you don’t “have” to answer it.

What i am trying to show is that the option select exists all over the game.
It is the underlying strengths of the walldive that makes it so good not the option select itself.

1600

What would be cool is if you guys can come to a consensus on some of these changes and then make a new thread with a list of agreed on changes in an easy to read format.

Sirlin had a harder job than you all imagined based on me reading this thread so he could make good changes and still please as many people as possible.