1461

D’oh! My mistake. I took you for “oldboy_BR.” In my zeal to call out a fraud I wrongfully and embarrassingly accused you of being him. (If you saw this guy play, I’m sure that you would take it as an insult!) Please accept my sincere apology.

1462

And therein lies the problem with Cammy in HDR, Noriega. The Cannon Drill is barely any better, because it ISN’T a good move at all. Even in its improved state, how does a safer drill get her past fireballs, Balrog’s Low Jab, Honda’s Jab Headbutt, and other such moves? It doesn’t, so in the end it didn’t help her much AT ALL. In other words, in some matches, it’s actually HARDER to win with her NOW than it was in ST.

And to top it all off, the Drill was safe enough for the belief to nerf her Jump Strong in fear of raping Dhalsim and nerf her Uppercut for fear of her Drill and Cannon Spike combo being like Balrog’s Rush and Headbutt Combo.

Do you understand why I hate Cammy in HDR so much now?

It’s like what VFF is complaining about Hawk. The safer Drill gives you the ILLUSION of more power. But in the end, when the Drill is shut down, what are you left with? A set of moves WORSE than before. To be honest, I think the best improvement Cammy got in HDR was the Spin Knuckle’s increased hit box, speed, and easier command. But other than that, I feel like she got shafted pretty badly.

I was looking for better Normals so she could apply pressure better with a Footsie game, which is what a pixie needs. Compare her Normals to Chun’s Low Forward and Stand Strong, and you can see how badly Cammy pales in this area. And I’ve already talked a TON about how I would have tweaked the Spin Knuckle. I was really looking for a Jab Spin Knuckle that spun in place and didn’t knock down, slow enough to not Combo after a Strong or Forward but fast enough to Combo from a Fierce. So you’d have to be kissing the opponent to make it Combo, which almost never happens for Cammy. But it would give her a safe-on-block Special Move sequence like every other character (like Ryu’s Low Forward Fireball, Fei’s Fierce into Fierce + Fierce + Jab Rekka, Bison Low Forward into Short Scissor Kick, Balrog Low Strong into Low Rush, Guile Low Strong into Sonic Boom, etc.) as well as a move to whiff from the other side of the screen to gain meter, since every other character has cheesy easy ways to build meter. In ST, outside of Hawk, she was the only character who didn’t have an easy way to build meter for free, and T.Hawk even got one in HDR!

Bleah, anyhow, I seem to always rant about Cammy. By now, most people who have heard me rant about her are sick of me ranting about her. So I’ll stop now.

  • James
1463

Yeah, the biggest thing that kills me about some of the balancing concepts with the lowest tiers is that they really “shook the marbles up” a lot regarding the fundamentals of how they played. In fairness, I never really played Cammy in ST much, but I can definitely understand how you?d be used to her previous playstyle. I do like the new command motions for her in particular (mostly because overlapping commands suck, and the fact that unlike so many other move changes, nothing was done to nerf these to keep them “balanced”). I love the speed of her new Drill, but the loss of the priority in front really sucks in footsie games where you can have your opponent feeling safe out of your crouching forward range. (Of course, now that Hooligans are easier, you have that option too.)

I think, as you do, that the Spin Knuckle wasn’t buffed quite enough. Never really had a problem building meter with her though…perhaps some blend of ranges from O.Cammy’s jab version (not totally neutral, but shorter than currently at least), N/R.Cammy’s great fierce range, and a halfway point for strong? Would be simple enough to implement, relatively speaking. If the damned thing could just get over Ken’s and Chun’s fireballs a little easier, was just a little faster (like Hawk’s dives though, not too much, like six frames tops), and most importantly, was a bit harder to sweep before her hitting frames go active…yummy. Of course, the way I play Cammy is really aggressive, so I can understand wanting to have a version that could end in a good string from a neutral position.

Her normals?well, there?s the option to give her diagonal jumping strong back those few pixels at the bottom, since Dhalsim can now punish her much easier after a blocked Cannon Spike. If it doesn?t happen, oh well?but having those pixels back would be helpful against a few other opponents, like Guile or sweep-happy Blankas or even Hondas. (And I?m still for Dhalsim getting the easier motion for his super as a better counter option for him, but I digress.)

More to what you said though, Cammy could use like one more good mid-height poke similar to Chun?s standing strong, or Fei?s shake-hands. Wouldn?t have to even be as fast or as high-priority as those; just start with a move she rarely uses, like standing roundhouse. Shave her blue hitbox back like two, maybe three pixels at her foot (from the four frames where her farthest active hitbox comes out) so that she would have a better chance of beating moves that kill her like lunging HHS or headbutts, and even some of Claw?s pokes. It should be JUST ENOUGH to beat a move like Honda?s headbutt with almost no margin for error, so that if you?re late at all he still gets a favorable trade. This alone would open up Cammy?s game immensely, but a TON of things could still beat it. At least you?d make the Hondas and Claws of the world have to work for it a little bit more.

And nah man, you rant as much as you want =P You?re really good at being analytical and have a great perspective as a designer, so your ?rants? are pretty informative.

Yeah, I like your thinking on the sound effect for both dives being the same. They have the same hitboxes and speed once he actually takes off at you?though this is definitely one of those things we?d just never know without some good playtesting.

I actually had the same idea as you regarding lowering Hawk?s hitbox to the floor on the startup of Rising Hawk, as this could definitely help him versus Guile and Claw. Anyone else willing to play footsie with Hawk should already be at a range where it shouldn?t matter anyway. The only thing is?I think it might actually be a little too good against Guile. Sure, he shouldn?t be blocking your HDR dive anyway, but it does happen, and your ground pokes already beat his. If you could just thump his forward and roundhouse attempts immediately afterward every time he threw it out, he?d be a goner since it would be so much easier to stay in on him. Hell, I?d risk spamming the move in his face all day, because it neutralizes half of Guile?s options and risks a very favorable knockdown position for you. You connect even once, and it?s potentially curtains for Guile. If I?m missing something here, feel free to enlighten me gridman :wink: But yeah, I?m biased towards the two dives for the potential for more mixups and fun (as well as a real tool against a few key characters, like Honda and Boxer).

To compensate, I?d give him two more tweaks (besides fixing any bugs he currently has).

  1. Give the slide portion of his recovery hitboxes that actually match his body. Check out images #3 and #7; they?re the same boxes, but shifted up and back slightly in the later image. This allows Hawk to be kept out by ANYTHING on the ground. Jab mashes, sweeps, specials, supers?you name it. If, however, both sets were at the same position that they were in #3, you could slide in just short, and if your opponent was just jamming on jab, and they didn’t catch you…you?d be in. You?d be able to punish them for being brain-dead for a second, which is exactly as it should be. It would even clear under a few moves like DeeJay?s upkicks, which Hawk could really use?and the beauty is that any other mid-height or ground move, at all, would still keep him out. (The first part of Claw?s flipkick could still catch him though; you can?t win them all, heh.)

  2. Give him back the range he had as N.Hawk on standing roundhouse. It was wonderful for punishing some moves, and keeping some pressure on from a distance. To keep it fair, extend the blue hitbox at his feet the same distance as the red hitbox while it’s online so that he would be just as sweepable as before. (This would also still give you a reason to use standing fierce, considering.)

Hawk wouldn’t be as 100% solid on the inside as he was in ST, since he’d still have the whiff and no more active grab frames. But he would have more things to keep the opponent guessing, better pressure tools, and a few more sneaky ways inside…and since he’s still damned scary once he’s there, it would make for a great (but not stupid) T.Hawk. Now, if it were realistic to give him the Condor Spire, well sure…but good luck with that.

I know I type here a lot, but I really am passionate about the long-term longevity of this game and how it could be improved. (That, and I?m recovering from minor surgery, goodbye deviated septum!) The game is great, but the best part about any game is that it brings us together. What Jiggly said earlier really was spot-on. I?m always looking forward to the ideas you all have, and that we together can work toward.

1464

You know what, I played SF4 yesterday for a few hours. And I ended up not liking it even more than the first time I played it when it came out. It just doesn’t feel like a Street Fighter game. When Alpha came out, it was different but it still felt like Street Fighter, when SF3 came out, it was different but it still felt like Street Fighter. SF4 feels like a generic 3D fighting game.

SF4 is just not my cup of tea after playing the classic 2D SF games all my life.

1465

BTW as far as balancing HDR is concerned. It seems that generally speaking?

Giving a new tool to a character to fill his weakness -is better than- Tweaking a character for a specific matchup

That’s what Capcom was doing since WW and eventually it got us ST.

Sirlin’s approach was new in that he wanted to make minor changes to compress the tiers which he accomplished very well. However, in doing so, low tier characters who received buffs, also received nerfs to balance them out, so they wouldn’t jump up in the tiers. I think his approach was the right one given the circumstance, if he did anything drastic the SF community would go bananas.

However, it would have been interesting to see how the low tiers such as Cammy, Fei, and T. Hawk would turn out had they received all the buffs that they did, and got none of the nerfs.

1466

I’m not so sure that would be the best idea for some of them:
T. Hawk with safe on block knockdown dive and no miss animation.
Fei Long with longer rekkas, easy CW motion, short CW though fireballs, and combo out of CW.

1467

Okay, how about leave T. Hawks dive as is in ST. And only add the extra recovery on the short CW. No reason to nerf the other CW since the only thing changed about them was the motion. (I’m pretty sure this has been brought up already.) Otherwise a safe on block flame kick and Cammy’s changes don’t seem like they would break the game.

1468

That is kind of the problem with mk/hk CW. They recieved reduced hitboxes, no fireball immunity, horrible air to air priority because of the reduced hitboxes, and they have the same recovery as lk CW, but they have juggles! Juggles don’t make up for the rest of that.

After a CW, fei’s best choice in HDR is flamekick, since he can’t appreciably do much else but tick off of CWs, which is partially unreliable given his throw range(he can’t out throw anyone).

Safe lk flamekick was part of his speed game, taking that away and modifiying his CWs kind of makes him slow. I still prefer O.fei to N.fei because he isn’t as execution heavy as N.fei.

1469

It is OK, no worries, man.

1470

Actually, the Chicken Wing always Juggled, even in ST.

  • James
1471

Still don’t get why HDR.Fei’s cw and fk recovery were increased. I know it doesn’t hurt his match ups alot in HDR. Longer range rekkas, short.cw over fb, and cw to fk juggles makes up for it. But his trapping schemes aren’t as aggressive than in ST(I think so). I guess cause I’d be abusing the cw trap on Chun Li.

1472

Well that’s fair, but Chun Li has some underutilized design space that could use some slight buffing for her as well, such as varying her SBKs up a bit more. I really wish Sirlin would have looked at at least her old short SBK in the same manner that he did with Dictator’s Devil Reverse and made it okay as a slightly better escape move, but still give her the arc/juggle properties she has with them now on the forward version. Then the roundhouse one could have been something like almost no invincible startup, no juggling, but very quick, better air-to-air priority (to actually make it good against, say Claw), and a farther arc. Between this, playing around with her super a bit more, and finding some way to keep her air SBK from accidentally coming out so much, she’d have everything she’d need.

I’m okay with Fei not having the ability to combo immediately out of the CW kicks, just not to get swept so damned easily on reaction. There has to be a better way here.

1473

I hear you, man, and I totally agree. It drives me nuts when I see the drill getting stuffed by something as absurd as a simple cr. jab. Cammy can get wins from mid-level competition and from players with inferior reflexes, but every elite player will bury her. The knuckle is about 90% useless, the hooligan relies on slow reflexes from the opponent, and technically-speaking her matches could be 10-0 against some characters. When you consider that Guile, Dee-Jay, Ken, Ryu, Honda, and Sagat have a counter for EVERYTHING in her arsenal, its just ridiculous. Its a pressure tool only useful if you’re within range - but good luck getting in that range against top players. Ah well, I think as Cammy mains we sort of signed up for the uphill battle, no?

1474

Play as bison and get cornered by fei. Once you’ve been corner raped by him you’ll understand it. :rofl:

I’d say that some of that stuff is down to the fact that Sirlin mains dictator. I’m not saying that he consciously buffed his fave character’s bad matchups/bad scenarios, but i definitely think he had a more solid understanding of all the BS dictator has to go through than he may have had from a lot of other character’s standpoints, and changed a lot of it with a much fuller understanding of all the ramifications than he did for hawk or chun or whoever.

A lot of the “OMG that is so retarded it makes me want to scream” stuff in dictator’s matchups are gone now, he only got better from the remix. There’s no more ochio loop in the corner, no hawk inescapable 360 lockdown, and fei’s corner BS is much more of a guessing game for him now and not as sure as it used to be

There are loads more examples too, but just to be clear, i don’t want to detract from sirlin’s work. HDR is still by far my fave SF game.

1475

Actually I’m pretty sure there still is no way out for bison in the corner against hawk. Even if you do the devils reverse to the opposite side. I havent tested it at all but just from when I use to play a lot, if hawk does an early jump fierce, the active frames are so long that it hits him as hes waking up with DR and if he doesnt, the fp still hits bison when he blocks / does something else.

oh and by no way out, i mean no way out besides super of course. i could be wrong, like i said i havent tested it thoroughly but even if he can get out, its still ridiculously tough for sure. props to players that can get out.

1476

I don’t understand. If Hawk tries to throw, DR/Psycho Crusher should get Bison out of the corner.

1477

Yeah, but at least you have to mix it up a bit on him now :wink: Dictator really was the most improved character in HDR, along with Ryu and maybe Guile. Dic’s a perfect example of how to make someone competitively better, but still not break them. Zangief was really well done too; he just didn’t get anything quite like the answers that Dic did, or anything as potentially abusive as Ryu. More good design like Dic, please.

Back to Hawk…it still amuses me how few Dictators know how good his standing and especially crouching fierce are against splashes and such. That jump-in fierce punch trick is one of my favorites against him in the corner, along with jumping medium punch (since he’s so used to seeing that animation whiff on him while he’s crouching), and making him think you’re going for a tick throw when you know he’s on point with reversals, and instead just throwing a “random” Rising Hawk into him instead. Of course, the trick is to getting into that position in the first place, isn’t it?

EDIT: PC has planted frames on the ground, so if you’re doing everything properly timing and piano-wise, you’ll still catch Dic with Hawk. DR, straight-up, will avoid normal ground ticks, in which case you get into a wonderful mix-up guessing game. Do you come in high, just tick throw, or what? That does give Dic a viable non-super way out of the corner, but Hawk has to guess incorrectly. Just the fact that there’s a guess to be made, though, is an improvement for him.

1478

Ken says “Hi”.

1479

Yeah, but Ken did lose some goodness with his kneebash game. It’s still plenty powerful, and I agree, Ken got improved from ST to HDR. Guile’s improvements widened his game up just a bit more, though, and Ryu/Dic got nothing but improvements.

DeeJay’s in a similar position to Ken; he’s no doubt better overall, but for people who were experts with him before, he did lose a tiny bit of damage and dizzy in a few areas. Still, from a personal view, I really feel Sirlin did an outstanding job with them.

1480

I would GLADLY, GLADLY give up Ken’s knee bash range for his better :lp: DP and his :mp: and :hp: DPs that work (i.e. actually knock down) as intended. Plus having a viable super for reversals isn’t too bad either. That alone takes away many wake up options for a lot of the cast. But I can see where you’re coming from.