2582

You wanted new animations in HDR when only like two games in the sf2 series use new animations for anything

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7131649/Hitbox Pictures/sf2-09-23-054203.png

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7131649/Hitbox Pictures/sf2-09-23-054221.png

I agree vega should go back to these hitboxes.

I like moonshilde attacking me because he thinks jumping and kicking with chun requires no skill at all. Have fun getting dp’d by old sagat and then never being able to move for a match.

Anyway Jizzon I said I would playtest your rom with you, what the hell why do you hate me

2583

The youtube video only shows that his AA options are mostly standing far punches and situations that aren’t practical in a real match. I don’t know any opponent who will jump in that far away on Dictator. No one does, except maybe Chun-Li because her jump kicks have ridiculous hit boxes and her jump range is so large. Everyone knows Dictator has totally crap close range AA, so they’ll jump in at a close distance because Dictator has extremely few options. The ones Dictator already has are extremely spacing specific and some of those are even character specific, like cr.mk working as an AA, but against few instances like Hawk’s j.lp. Giving him something like a standing close jab that is similar to say, shoto standing close jab, would help keep characters from jumping all over him in the corner or directly over him elsewhere in the arena. Just a small tool to help in that situation.

As for wall dive, even in it’s non-knock down state, it still has the same cross up potential and guessing game, and a sector 2 wall dive functions as a tick throw on hit and on block, so the opponent still ends up on the ground. This is an issue because of the hit box, and ST only allows for 1 hit box per attack frame.

I also double checked the hit boxes for WW wall dive.

I originally mis-interpreted what you wrote so I took snaps, but now I see what you’re saying. Still, the hands start up I don’t think would be very useful as a cross up, on top of that they’d have to hit high during his dive and would be unsafe on recovery. Most likely it would be similar to Dictator’s head stomp. On top of that, you could make it so the damage output on the initial hands would be weak, just in case it did have some minor cross up potential, and of course it would be easy to punish on recovery since he would still have to land. To be useful to get a second hit would require to be very deep. Let me show you what I mean by fixing wall dive. You’ll have to excuse the crappy SNES sprite, lol, it’s really terrible compared to arcade goodness, but you should get the idea.

As you can see, without the hit box across the chest you eliminate on of the biggest balance issues in the game.

As for what you can do with the tools you have? I’m not sure. This is why I think for the game to get truly balanced would require a new engine, additional move properties like passing through fireballs but not physical attacks, and additional sprite material. Otherwise, you’re working on extending hit boxes for some moves and shrinking them for others, and giving characters invincibility to work through fireballs. Invincibility isn’t an answer IMO, because look at Boxer. He needed a way through master fireball zoners, so they allowed headbutt to have invincibility (since there isn’t a property for simply passing through a fireball) which allowed him to simply corner rape even characters with reversal moves that have some invulnerable frames during start up.

I guess you don’t understand context do you? I’m not even going to bother clarifying for you.

2584

The kd is worse than the crossup. When walldive kd’s, you have to deal with the same 50/50 again. When it does not kd, vega gets his damage reward and then has to work to get the same mixup instead of getting it for free. This has the bonus effect of the walldive still feeling very powerful to vega players.

Removing the knockdown removed his ambiguous walldive loop, making vega much more fair, plus adjustments to other characters.

WRT invincibility, you don’t seem to understand that balrogs mp and fp headbutts are basically fine, because they have hurtboxes during the active frames. It almost seems like a bug to me, but balrog jab headbutt being 100% invincible during all active frames is a mistake. If it was changed to still be invincible but have the same properties of the mp and fp headbutts, it would be totally fine

2585

Thanks for being more civil, I appreciate that. I disagree about the knock down. If you looked at my theoretical example, there would be no way for the Claw player to ambiguously cross up the opponent, since in order to get the hit boxes to register you’d either have to be in the front or back, and because of how wide the attack is, the ambiguity is lost. It would be easily advertised which side the player is going to, and the opponent should be able to block the attack much easier. Then, it boils down to the Claw opponent’s wake up game and skill, can they reversal or counter? If they miss, they get hit by a deep wall dive and get knocked down. If they learn they can’t reversal consistently and don’t have the skill for it, they can block. If both players are skillful, then there is potential to still loop, but you’d have to work so much harder for it since blocking the dive would be that much easier. The Claw player would have to be really crafty.

The main issue with the current knock down is that the hit box is so huge, you can shake the stick back and forth over sector 2 to create a guessing game, and the opponent will most likely not know which side to block. And, even without knock down, you still get the cross up, and Claw lands right next to an opponent still in stun and Claw gets a throw, regardless if the dive is blocked or hits during wake up. Rinse, repeat.

As for Boxer’s head butt, there is more than enough invulnerable frames and because of it’s horizontal travel, that it beats out nearly every reversal option in the corner. Check the hit boxes again, the vulnerability doesn’t happen until about 3/4ths of the way through the Strong and Fierce versions. The range will beat even DP reversals because of the hurt boxes behind them, I think the only really safe reversal option against them is O.Shoto’s DP because they have no hurt boxes at all during the ascent of the DP. Obviously the current game can’t allow it to simply pass through projectiles but be punished by physical attacks, so maybe what can currently be done is giving it more recovery frames, or, on block or hit, it gets knocked back so he can’t head bash on recovery at least.

http://golden-songs.com/ssf2st/st/balrog/#Buffalo Headbutt (Bull Charge)

2586

You asking for changes to an engine you have no understanding of and yet you trying to play this high ground is quite funny. FYI the changes you’re asking for are not going to happen.

2587

Really? I mean, really? Really really? Because I thought the topic was Rebalancing ST Remix, which is entirely theoretical, and not likely to happen. I also wasn’t asking for anything, just sharing thoughts. I also have a fairly good understanding of the engine, thank you.

2588

Tell me what this does then.



move.b  ($104,A6), D0
move.w  (-$40,PC,D0.w), D1
jsr     (-$44,PC,D1.w)
tst.b   ($105,A6)
bne     $2b422
move.b  ($8,A6), D0
cmp.b   ($23,A6), D0
beq     $2b448
move.b  D0, ($5b,A6)
move.b  D0, ($23,A6)
move.b  ($9,A6), ($24,A6)
2589

Is that code assembly?

There’s a good chance 95% of srk has no idea how to follow that.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

2590

Yes that is assembly.

2591

What’s jsr?

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

2592

Jump to subroutine

2593

I was curious about something.

Are cps games coded from assembly or did they use a language of some kind and is it possible to reverse compile the rom into that language?

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

2594

The 68k used in cps is to slow to be using another language of course they had comments to help decipher the code. The first time I heard of converters to other languages was the Saturn era. Travelers Tales used a 68k to C converter(provided by Sega) to port 3d blast to the PC and Saturn.

2595

Guess ill have to learn this assembly editing

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

2596

You guys lost me at the code assembly LOL.

I’m fine with Vega’s Wall Dive hitboxes the way they are, I’m also fine with allowing him to knock down.

What I would propose to re-balance ST N.Vega would be to delay the start up of the Wall Dive. According to the ST Wiki, Wall Dive has 3 frames of startup (for comparison Bison’s Devil’s Reverse has 45 frames of startup once you push Punch in the air). I would increase that to 10 frames, and on top of that I would also decrease the speed and mobility Vega has once he pushes Punch in the air.

I think the effect this will have is that once Vega has knocked down an opponent, and goes off the wall to try to meaty crossup with an ambiguous Wall Dive, he has to press Punch much earlier, and once he presses Punch he can’t strafe back and forth as fast he can now (but he can still do it). In other words, he can still do an ambiguous crossup Wall Dive and he keeps his knock down property, but once he pushes Punch he will move slightly slower through the air (still pretty fast tho). It will be slightly harder to mixup the opponent and should allow characters to get their reversals out more easily.

It would still be risky to reversal cuz if you screw up Vega will get the knock down and go for another, not to mention some reversals can get stuffed or will whiff completely, but I think it will remove some of the guesswork when blocking or reversing a meaty Wall Dive. Everything else should stay the same IMO.

2597

So amongst many, many other changes I’ve made to a tweaked version of ST (including many of the HDR changes), I gave Honda his ability to hit on the way up with the roundhouse buttslam.

It’s ridiculous, and I can totally understand why it didn’t make the final cut. There is a hitbox for it in the game data, and when “reactivated,” it gives Honda the ability to trap similarly to HF Blanka’s up-rolls, as well as knock down anyone standing very quickly from half a screen away…through fireballs.

I nerfed the damage, and trimmed down the size of that hitbox from the bottom up, but it’s still just gross. I took the adjustments and gave the move to O.Honda instead, since he has no super, floating fierce, or jab headbutt that goes through fireballs. Since his hitbox on the way down is less wide, you can’t trap nearly as well with him, so it’s a bit more fair. It’s still so powerful it might have to come back out, though.

For HDR Honda, though? It’s just too good, without altering the move to make it unrecognizable.

2598

Ryu- Nothing was done to this guy in HDR really, save the fake fireball. And that was kinda unecessary although it is a tool he can use.

Deejay- They did a pretty good job.

Ken- Not as many invinc. frames on the shoryus. possibly get the throw range back. something could be done about the super. I think while in testing for ST Capcom had something like HDR ken but toned him down for the final release.

T. Hawk- Un-nerf him. Having a whiff animation takes away much of the power behind this character and the incentive to play him.

Honda- … um ridiculous invinc frames on the heabutt… wut? Maybe it’s me but this just seems a bit odd. and did they fix the super being so easy to beat in hdr?

Chun- Chun didn’t need a lot of the stuff she was given but it’s fun to mess with and it adds to what she can do. Still, all she really could want would be a non meter reversal with a little invincibility. So if we were to take the St template, maybe make one of the the sbk’s have with some invinc frames on it.

Rog- Rog is Rog. Rog didn’t become too much lesser or greater in his rogginess.

Vega- HDR did not stop the yoomaster from yooing all over everything. possibly make it not as safe to do.

Sagat- kinda iffy about those juggle combos.

Sim- Dunno if I’m qualified to talk about this much.Not as good as ST but he is ridic in St.

Guile- The hk flash is ridic. Fun to play with but you can win some matches with the range on this alone.

Bison- at one point this guy was going to get a fake slide. That would have been a nice tool for him. He still has the weakness of being easily caught in traps.

Gief- Gief got BUFF’D in this. Is it too much though?

Blanka- Blanka is better in general at this but it brings to mind the question of player skill/randomness vs tiers. Technically Blanka is more than able up-close to mix up and rush down on about anybody in ST even if he may have some initial difficulty (maybe save Honda).

Cammy- Cammy wasn’t really taken care of imo in this. She feels kinda unfinished in St and she does here as well.

  • Buff the spin knuckle so it actually goes through moves.
  • possibly have the lk cannon spike go under projectiles with really good timing.
  • a dive from the hooligan flip could work but it would have to be balanced REALLY well. (sup ae 2012 cough)
  • maybe some mild buffs to some normals. her normals imo are pretty good, it’s not like she’s buttonless.

Fei Long- Sirlin thought he debuffed the trap. He didn’t. While it isn’t possible to do hp xx wing as much as in ST, lpxx wing keeps going… and going… and going…
He also seems to be ignorant of the fact that ion ST, Fei only gets a set number of reps. It takes player input/ mixup to keep it going and fei needs to do a lot of damage when he gets in. because of how few his chances are of getting in to begin with.

What Fei actually needs is a non-meter invincible move. I’d suggest lk or mk flame kick as to giving it to the lk chicken wing, because doing so, while being beneficial to Fei, would end up making his trap even crazier. Keeping with the general theme of Fei this move would generally need to be well timed in order for it to go through a douken or some other move.

2599

Dictator has good enough anti-air tools in ST. He has slide, PC and SK to evade jumps from close up, diagonal strong and RH to hit jumps from further away, and his great neutral RH to hit enemies on the head if they jump from the wrong reason - and almost any distance is wrong if Dictator is not caught in the recovery of a move. If he needs something, then make his st.Fierce easier to trade.

Ryu needs his cl.Fierce, it saves him in the corner and when he does not have enough time to do a SRK. It could get the stun nerf on the last active part too, since it causes a reset and creates a big opportunity of dizzying the enemy. If the KD on the red Hadou can be made like a sweep, he would be OK,* IMO. His tatus should’t be touched, too, since the matches where it is most useful are close to even - or not, e.g., Dhalsim and Claw.

I’m not sure what Fei needs. He can be really dangerous if OP’ed: one extra rekka connecting each round in average means Fei is top tier. He is already fair against Ken, so the projectile is not the issue, alone. The command on the Rekka kicks should be fixed, for sure. Also, KD on all Flame Kicks and same throw range as Guile, at least, and a 1-pixel shorter pushbox on his jump, so his cross-up does not miss so often. I believe he might suffer from the same screen scroll issue that affects Cammy. Finally, neutral Jab having a slightly shorter hitbox should help him avoid projectiles.

O.Ryu is fine, just remove the unblockable tatsu.

Safe on block Jab roll for O.Blanka would be a fair and safe change, IMO.

*but the animation would be ugly

2600

One of the problems with balancing are the old version of characters.
This game (HD remix) was suposed be a “fixer”.

Anyway what you do with the old characters?
1-Leave them EXACTLY like Super Turbo Old characters were?
2-Leave them EXACTLY like Super Turbo Old characters were but bug-fixing them?
3-Change them to make them as close as possible to characters are the Super Street Fighter 2 (not turbo) ones?
4-Change them to make them as close as possible to characters are the Super Street Fighter 2 (not turbo) ones, but bug-fixing them?

If you pick any of those choices, those characters will not be balanced.

If you balance everyone including old versions, the old guys lose their gimmick.

2601

Sorry for quoting something so old, but…Finally someone else who thinks Chun was weak in HDR. Just giving her decent reversal Upkicks and/or more invincibility on Super would’ve made up for inferior meter building, imo. Sirlin is a hack, he banned me from his forum for crushing him in a debate there, embarrassing him lol. He doesn’t listen to anyone about anything regardless of their credentials or quality of their argument, he behaves illogically and runs on emotion. He’s very disrespectful as well, quite rude.