2578

You are still arguing from the standpoint that the game needs an engine overhaul to allow for a significant balance change.

The bosses in WW have all sorts of crazy properties we never got as players because they’d be broken. Look at the size of Sagat’s Tiger Shots, and how he doesn’t project his limbs at all. The fact that Claw could hit before his swipe animation (which also includes his “UFO” hitbox that stays out the entire way to the ground) in the oldest, roughest game in the series is not a good place to discern the finer points of “designer intent” as you do. Perhaps everyone should weigh the topic more objectively.

Attacks about understanding English…man, really? “Attacks should be timed, and skill should be rewarded.” Absolutely. When you use a jumping light attack, all of that is very much in play. You’re really just nit-picking the fact that you don’t like floaty or extended-hit moves. Maybe they’re not totally realistic, but neither is chucking a fireball, or taking more damage from being hurled through the air than landing on your back from about two stories up.

Really, this can play out two ways. You can say “whatever,” grumbling at the fact that no one is buying in to your engine-overhaul game theory, and dismiss this thread. Your subject matter is barely on-topic as-is, though at least with Dictator you’re attempting to come up with something more reasonable…

…which leads to the second thing, and what I hope from anyone who has good experience and a crop of ideas. You toss out specifics, either a problem that needs remedied, an idea for a new toy for someone, and how you’d go about all of that. You adapt your case by tempering those ideas off of what others here bring to the table. When you make assumptive claims about designer intent, or enter a thread about rebalancing basically stating that it’s impossible in its current form, you’re going to get pounced on. Shrug it off, give us some specifics we can get behind, and everyone will be better for it.

2579

Yeah, English. It’s not my fault CWheezy isn’t paying attention and attacking something I never wrote.

I’ve given tons of specifics already, and every change I give a reason to why it can’t be abused.

How can no one see that the wall dive is a swipe move from the air? Anyone can see the intent behind the move is an air slash, not a belly flop. That’s not even arguing designer intent, it’s showing what the move is. All the post SF2 iterations are like that, a swipe, especially since they have more frames for animation and even air slash effects. SF2 has limited animation frames because of ROM space, if you’ve read designer interviews you’d see that they were working with space limitations. You want a source? How about SF: Eternal Challenge. That specific enough?

Again, with a new engine you could code multiple hit boxes for attacks, such as a box on each hand so there isn’t a box that crosses his chest. It could keep knock down and get rid of the problems ST has with wall dive loop. If there was no hit box on his chest, then you can’t do the ambiguous sector 2 cross up. That means it will take a matter of skill to hit the move low when someone gets up, but it will still be a choice of front or back depending on which hand you use. Also, because you have to choose front or back, that means the defender can see better which side to block, although that doesn’t mean that the slash motion from a skilled player won’t be any easier to deal with, but at least the guessing game of the sector 2 wall dive cross up wouldn’t be an issue.

I only used the WW reference because it shows intent that the start of the slashing animation was meant to hit, even if they went about it in an ass backwards way. The startup doesn’t need a huge rectangular hit box, it could have a very small one on the hand that doesn’t have a knock down property. Again I posted another specific earlier that for the start to even safely hit a Claw player would need to hit very high at the head, which would then leave him vulnerable and next to the opponent on the recovery of the wall dive, say it’s Gief, free SPD. But say you do it deep, then the second hit could possibly hit as well causing a knock down. Only problem is, getting that deep would be extremely risky, risking being hit by an AA since during start up the first hit would be a small hit box compared to plenty of hurt box on Claw’s body. The defender would have to make the mistake of allowing it to happen. Big risk, good reward, Claw scored a knock down. How can you get any more specific than that?

That’s a very specific example, one I gave several posts above. Dictator was another. Funny how you say people should weigh more objectively, yet I’m being very objective here. I’ve given specific examples, not being biased, and I’ve backed everything up with factual information.

2580

Why do you keep arguing that no one sees that the wall dive is a swipe move from the air? No one’s arguing otherwise.

The move in its later SFII iterations (unlike WW, which has your pre-slash hitbox active the entire time he’s coming down until he swipes, neither of which knock down) only hits on the slash part, and only for six frames. Since his hands start from below him, it makes sense to have that “UFO hitbox,” as it covers the area of both of his hands’ travel. Even if the engine were redone and allowed pixel-perfect, frame specific hitboxes, his hand still starts below him. It would be more difficult, but still possible to cross up with. You’re wanting to make a singular swipe motion a two-hit combo so that first swiping part couldn’t knock down, but the second hit could. That’s a very convoluted way of dealing with something that has already been dealt with by simply returning the wall dive to the state it had prior to CPS-2: to simply not knock down at all, unless you connect with the Izuna Drop.

You mean like the ones he already has? It’s good that you’re listing things you recognize as issues, and giving a few ideas for how to correct them. In the case you’ve mentioned here, though, you can see that he has options there. Part of the reasons we bounce ideas like this is because no one person knows the game perfectly well. If you could add your bolded move listed in the quote, what would it be? How would it work, exactly, at least in theory?

The fact that SFII has limited ROM space does not suddenly validate any claims you make about claiming to know what a designer intended with a specific move regarding cross-up capabilities and such. If you have any documented instances of a designer or programmer regarding specific move properties, please quote them, and that objective print will be undeniable. Otherwise, you could infer anything and “back it up” with such a general ground.

You don’t rebalance a game by making it into a completely new one. You want to talk about doing a new engine, do it somewhere else, because it’s off-topic. I won’t respond to any more conversation about it, and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

2581

Using the boss version as an excuse to say it was designer’s intent and should be put in again on the playable version. You know what? Let’s have Magneto get his force field back that grants him invincibility till the end of the round, cause he had on the original version in COTA.

Lmao that is some stupid logic right there.

2582

You wanted new animations in HDR when only like two games in the sf2 series use new animations for anything

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7131649/Hitbox Pictures/sf2-09-23-054203.png

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7131649/Hitbox Pictures/sf2-09-23-054221.png

I agree vega should go back to these hitboxes.

I like moonshilde attacking me because he thinks jumping and kicking with chun requires no skill at all. Have fun getting dp’d by old sagat and then never being able to move for a match.

Anyway Jizzon I said I would playtest your rom with you, what the hell why do you hate me

2583

The youtube video only shows that his AA options are mostly standing far punches and situations that aren’t practical in a real match. I don’t know any opponent who will jump in that far away on Dictator. No one does, except maybe Chun-Li because her jump kicks have ridiculous hit boxes and her jump range is so large. Everyone knows Dictator has totally crap close range AA, so they’ll jump in at a close distance because Dictator has extremely few options. The ones Dictator already has are extremely spacing specific and some of those are even character specific, like cr.mk working as an AA, but against few instances like Hawk’s j.lp. Giving him something like a standing close jab that is similar to say, shoto standing close jab, would help keep characters from jumping all over him in the corner or directly over him elsewhere in the arena. Just a small tool to help in that situation.

As for wall dive, even in it’s non-knock down state, it still has the same cross up potential and guessing game, and a sector 2 wall dive functions as a tick throw on hit and on block, so the opponent still ends up on the ground. This is an issue because of the hit box, and ST only allows for 1 hit box per attack frame.

I also double checked the hit boxes for WW wall dive.

I originally mis-interpreted what you wrote so I took snaps, but now I see what you’re saying. Still, the hands start up I don’t think would be very useful as a cross up, on top of that they’d have to hit high during his dive and would be unsafe on recovery. Most likely it would be similar to Dictator’s head stomp. On top of that, you could make it so the damage output on the initial hands would be weak, just in case it did have some minor cross up potential, and of course it would be easy to punish on recovery since he would still have to land. To be useful to get a second hit would require to be very deep. Let me show you what I mean by fixing wall dive. You’ll have to excuse the crappy SNES sprite, lol, it’s really terrible compared to arcade goodness, but you should get the idea.

As you can see, without the hit box across the chest you eliminate on of the biggest balance issues in the game.

As for what you can do with the tools you have? I’m not sure. This is why I think for the game to get truly balanced would require a new engine, additional move properties like passing through fireballs but not physical attacks, and additional sprite material. Otherwise, you’re working on extending hit boxes for some moves and shrinking them for others, and giving characters invincibility to work through fireballs. Invincibility isn’t an answer IMO, because look at Boxer. He needed a way through master fireball zoners, so they allowed headbutt to have invincibility (since there isn’t a property for simply passing through a fireball) which allowed him to simply corner rape even characters with reversal moves that have some invulnerable frames during start up.

I guess you don’t understand context do you? I’m not even going to bother clarifying for you.

2584

The kd is worse than the crossup. When walldive kd’s, you have to deal with the same 50/50 again. When it does not kd, vega gets his damage reward and then has to work to get the same mixup instead of getting it for free. This has the bonus effect of the walldive still feeling very powerful to vega players.

Removing the knockdown removed his ambiguous walldive loop, making vega much more fair, plus adjustments to other characters.

WRT invincibility, you don’t seem to understand that balrogs mp and fp headbutts are basically fine, because they have hurtboxes during the active frames. It almost seems like a bug to me, but balrog jab headbutt being 100% invincible during all active frames is a mistake. If it was changed to still be invincible but have the same properties of the mp and fp headbutts, it would be totally fine

2585

Thanks for being more civil, I appreciate that. I disagree about the knock down. If you looked at my theoretical example, there would be no way for the Claw player to ambiguously cross up the opponent, since in order to get the hit boxes to register you’d either have to be in the front or back, and because of how wide the attack is, the ambiguity is lost. It would be easily advertised which side the player is going to, and the opponent should be able to block the attack much easier. Then, it boils down to the Claw opponent’s wake up game and skill, can they reversal or counter? If they miss, they get hit by a deep wall dive and get knocked down. If they learn they can’t reversal consistently and don’t have the skill for it, they can block. If both players are skillful, then there is potential to still loop, but you’d have to work so much harder for it since blocking the dive would be that much easier. The Claw player would have to be really crafty.

The main issue with the current knock down is that the hit box is so huge, you can shake the stick back and forth over sector 2 to create a guessing game, and the opponent will most likely not know which side to block. And, even without knock down, you still get the cross up, and Claw lands right next to an opponent still in stun and Claw gets a throw, regardless if the dive is blocked or hits during wake up. Rinse, repeat.

As for Boxer’s head butt, there is more than enough invulnerable frames and because of it’s horizontal travel, that it beats out nearly every reversal option in the corner. Check the hit boxes again, the vulnerability doesn’t happen until about 3/4ths of the way through the Strong and Fierce versions. The range will beat even DP reversals because of the hurt boxes behind them, I think the only really safe reversal option against them is O.Shoto’s DP because they have no hurt boxes at all during the ascent of the DP. Obviously the current game can’t allow it to simply pass through projectiles but be punished by physical attacks, so maybe what can currently be done is giving it more recovery frames, or, on block or hit, it gets knocked back so he can’t head bash on recovery at least.

http://golden-songs.com/ssf2st/st/balrog/#Buffalo Headbutt (Bull Charge)

2586

You asking for changes to an engine you have no understanding of and yet you trying to play this high ground is quite funny. FYI the changes you’re asking for are not going to happen.

2587

Really? I mean, really? Really really? Because I thought the topic was Rebalancing ST Remix, which is entirely theoretical, and not likely to happen. I also wasn’t asking for anything, just sharing thoughts. I also have a fairly good understanding of the engine, thank you.

2588

Tell me what this does then.



move.b  ($104,A6), D0
move.w  (-$40,PC,D0.w), D1
jsr     (-$44,PC,D1.w)
tst.b   ($105,A6)
bne     $2b422
move.b  ($8,A6), D0
cmp.b   ($23,A6), D0
beq     $2b448
move.b  D0, ($5b,A6)
move.b  D0, ($23,A6)
move.b  ($9,A6), ($24,A6)
2589

Is that code assembly?

There’s a good chance 95% of srk has no idea how to follow that.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

2590

Yes that is assembly.

2591

What’s jsr?

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

2592

Jump to subroutine

2593

I was curious about something.

Are cps games coded from assembly or did they use a language of some kind and is it possible to reverse compile the rom into that language?

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

2594

The 68k used in cps is to slow to be using another language of course they had comments to help decipher the code. The first time I heard of converters to other languages was the Saturn era. Travelers Tales used a 68k to C converter(provided by Sega) to port 3d blast to the PC and Saturn.

2595

Guess ill have to learn this assembly editing

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

2596

You guys lost me at the code assembly LOL.

I’m fine with Vega’s Wall Dive hitboxes the way they are, I’m also fine with allowing him to knock down.

What I would propose to re-balance ST N.Vega would be to delay the start up of the Wall Dive. According to the ST Wiki, Wall Dive has 3 frames of startup (for comparison Bison’s Devil’s Reverse has 45 frames of startup once you push Punch in the air). I would increase that to 10 frames, and on top of that I would also decrease the speed and mobility Vega has once he pushes Punch in the air.

I think the effect this will have is that once Vega has knocked down an opponent, and goes off the wall to try to meaty crossup with an ambiguous Wall Dive, he has to press Punch much earlier, and once he presses Punch he can’t strafe back and forth as fast he can now (but he can still do it). In other words, he can still do an ambiguous crossup Wall Dive and he keeps his knock down property, but once he pushes Punch he will move slightly slower through the air (still pretty fast tho). It will be slightly harder to mixup the opponent and should allow characters to get their reversals out more easily.

It would still be risky to reversal cuz if you screw up Vega will get the knock down and go for another, not to mention some reversals can get stuffed or will whiff completely, but I think it will remove some of the guesswork when blocking or reversing a meaty Wall Dive. Everything else should stay the same IMO.

2597

So amongst many, many other changes I’ve made to a tweaked version of ST (including many of the HDR changes), I gave Honda his ability to hit on the way up with the roundhouse buttslam.

It’s ridiculous, and I can totally understand why it didn’t make the final cut. There is a hitbox for it in the game data, and when “reactivated,” it gives Honda the ability to trap similarly to HF Blanka’s up-rolls, as well as knock down anyone standing very quickly from half a screen away…through fireballs.

I nerfed the damage, and trimmed down the size of that hitbox from the bottom up, but it’s still just gross. I took the adjustments and gave the move to O.Honda instead, since he has no super, floating fierce, or jab headbutt that goes through fireballs. Since his hitbox on the way down is less wide, you can’t trap nearly as well with him, so it’s a bit more fair. It’s still so powerful it might have to come back out, though.

For HDR Honda, though? It’s just too good, without altering the move to make it unrecognizable.