I agree 100%. I think this is something that was known about the game from the start if you looked at it in relation to how it worked in older games.
It was acknowledged at the start that there were only a handful of characters equipped to play footsies in the traditional way: Cammy, Chun Li, Vega and Karin. But even then characters like Karin had the limitation that the space where they were strongest in footsies was where they were weak at anti-airing. So even though “footsie” characters do exist, it doesn’t mean that they will be allowed to play this way. Why bother to play footsies when you can just jump at them? Also, why for example would Bison even try to play footsies? He simply isn’t equipped to do so. Instead, he is more likely to look for opportunities to get in your face and start a frame-trap/throw game. And his opponent, even if they could play the RPS style of footsies would rather be trying to play in a way to counter his strategy.
This is why you don’t see it often in SFV. Characters are not equipped to play in that way, and even those who are are unlikely to use these techniques when the opponent is playing in a way that requires a different approach.
I’m using setup in the larger sense of setting up for a situation as opposed to a pure guts reaction. MochaLatte and d3v said the same thing, whiff punishing is a game of observing, baiting and creating the favorable situation where the opponent will press a button that you can punish with a specific button.
Meanwhile OP keeps insisting that moving towards an opponent in a corner to bait a low, then moving back and punishing it on whiff is not the same thing as doing it midscreen.
It doesn’t really work like that. Whiff punish is part of the RPS dynamic. When you play a game of RPS, you can’t just say “I’ll wait for my opportunity to play scissors”. There are two other ground options (not to mention jumping, retreating, specials etc). Opponents try to size each other up by doing “the dance” and the one with the better spacing, movement and reactions usually wins. If you think he is going to try to stop you from advancing, you might wait for that defensive poke. If you read is wrong, you’ll either end up getting walked to the corner, or you’ll get tagged by him walking forward and going low (this is why backwards walk speeds is usually slower than forward walkspeeds).
I’m not. I’m saying that the RPS footsie game associated with previous titles is much weaker in SFV, to the point where it’s noticeable that certain aspects of it are rarely seen. Like whiff-punishing. This is of course one of the things talk about most often, but offensive poking is also weaker. Defensive pokes are still there, but more often than not you’ll just find that players both whiffing moves out of range (ie. they are both playing “Paper”), and one wins by virtue of hitboxes and/or the priority system.
What you guys seem to be saying all this is intact in SFV, and the only reason you don’t see it is because it’s hard to do in general.
Everyone agrees that whiff punishing is weaker in SFV, but that is completely off the point. OP was saying that whiff punishing mostly if not only happens in SFV if people press buttons after you pushed them too far away, which is character dependent at best. People whiff punish you if you try to continue a blockstring out of range and some characters with good normals and walk speed like Cammy will whiff punish you with st. HP pretty much anywhere.
I had to say that whiff punishing is a “setup” to stress the fact that it requires a plan to put you and your opponent in a situation where his normal will whiff and yours will hit the extended limb. Saying it’s a game of reads and conditioning like you did amounts to the same thing.
There is no “setup”. There is only situation. The reason Zangief can’t whiff punish Guile as he is being zoned out isn’t because Gief doesn’t have a setup for it.
But let’s say that I accept your definition of “setup”. Then you also have to consider firstly the ability to create that situation, and secondly the concept of being able to capitalize on it.
As an extreme example, imagine someone asking why you don’t see people use SFIV Ryu’s close st.lk often. Well, it’s only usable up close. Let’s suppose I can “set up” a situation against the opponent where I can finally use it. The first question of course is why would anyone possibly want to do that? Why would I exert so much energy and risk so much for a move that is so weak? He has much better options at that range and others. Similarly, why would most characters attempt to play a traditional footsie game in SFV? Often it’s safer (and more rewarding) to either find a way to bypass this phase completely, or fish with Crush Counters or buffered specials. Now of course these have their place in mid-range ground game, but it’s clear that this isn’t what OP is talking about.
My point is that even if one were to accept your definition of “set up”, it doesn’t mean that the reason OP isn’t seeing it is because he is bad at footsies or not watching enough high level matches. SFV is not a game that lends itself to this style of play. That’s all there is to it.
You also disagreed with his post. There’s no semantics there. It is obvious what your implication was, but the truth is much simpler. SFV is not a game that lends itself to traditional footsie play. I’m not sure why you have a problem with this statement.
It’s fine ilitirit. You’re not the only guru of the FGC. You don’t have to feel compelled to give lessons to prove that nobody else understands things.
The guy didn’t really ask questions but exposed his theory about how whiff punishes work in SFV and insisted he was right even when people pointed out he was misinterpreting the very nature of whiff punishing. He never asked if whiff punishing is hard in this game and said that “99,9% of the time” it only happens if the opponent whiffs a button after that your blockstring pushed him too far. You never attempted to reply to this very statement but instead went on with your lesson about how “traditional footsies” don’t exist in SFV.
The fact he approved what you’re saying doesn’t prove anything since he barely understands the concept of whiff punishing. He probably just did that because you said you agreed with him.
I did in fact respond 100% to his question.
You see where he says this?
You don’t need to fully comprehend his broken english to understand his question.
“Placed” move = Defensive Poke. If you know this, then it should be very clear what he is asking.
Then I went on to explain why it doesn’t happen that often in SFV, and I didn’t just stop at Whiff Punishing. I went on to explain why Defensive Pokes are the most commonly seen ground game technique in another post.
Whiff punishing when your opponent options are limited is more simple and guaranteed, that’s what I’m saying.
After a blocked Ryu S mk proprerly spaced , or a fb, you can bait a response from your opponent because it’s his turn. You’re ready because you created a precise space and your focus is ready for punish that normal. We most commonly see these examples even in high level matches; a guy 15 reply ago posted a casual video about chun high level play and I proved that mostly whiff punish is baited, in sfv, from these situations.
I never said classic whiff punish in neutral situations doesn’t exist in sfv, but is character dependent ( chun , cammy , karin etc ) and generally more difficult because there are more variables in play.
In neutral mostly we land a placed move , searching a cc, stuffing a dash, a walk, a normal , but these are preemptive moves .
Neutral 90% placed moves , 10% classic whiff punish.
I’d like to share and discuss about my point of view but @oceanmachine replies like " you don’t understand " …, well I don’t think it’s a proper reply for newbie saiko dojo. Prove your point of view or your replies doesn’t help people trying to understand whiff punish in sfv.
I offered my point of view, you only negated it.